According to LDS Teachings there was a Great apostasy, a falling away from the truth. A time where the early Christian church disintegrated into nothing , and therefore according to LDS doctrine, leaving no priesthood authority upon the earth and leaving Christianity in a fallen state with no authority.
LDS Apostle B. H. Roberts wrote, “Saddening as the thought may seem, the Church founded by the labors of Jesus and His Apostles was destroyed from the earth; the Gospel was perverted; its ordinances were changed; its laws were transgressed; its covenant was, on the part of man, broken; and the world was left to flounder in the darkness of a long period of apostasy from God… a universal apostasy from the Christian doctrine and the Christian Church took place” (D.H.C., Vol. I, Introduction, pp. 39 and 41).
Apostle James Talmage said… ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel and the re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. Such restoration of re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the Holy Priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of Priesthood and power since the ‘meridian of time.’ The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the Apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only… The evidence of the decline and final extinction of the primitive Church among men is found in scriptural record and in secular history (The Great Apostasy, by LDS Apostle James Talmage, Preface).
The LDS backs up its claims of apostasy with these verses, Amos 8:11-12, Isaiah 60:2,
Acts 20:29-30, Gal 1:6-9, 1 Tim 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2 Tim 3:1-5, 4:2-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3, Rev 3:14-17. None of these verses say there will be a total apostasy in the New Testament Church.
Let’s take a closer look at a couple of them,
Acts 20:28-30 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them
I’ve added in verse 28 here for context, and so that we can see that Paul is clearly speaking to the overseers of the church. In these verses Paul was speaking to the Ephesian Church which a decade or so later was indeed being ravaged from within by false teachers, even from among the elders themselves.
We can see this in these verses from Timothy…
1 Timothy 1:19-20 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2 Timothy 2:17-18 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Lets look at another…
Galatians 1:6-9 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
First off here, Paul is specifically talking to the Church in Galatia. Verse 7, ‘there be some that trouble you’ speaks of visiting preachers who had tried to persuade the Galatian church of the need for circumcision and obedience to the whole law as a means of Justification.
Galatians 4:17 17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them
Galatians 6:12 12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Take the time to look at the other scriptures for yourself, looked at in context, are any of these verses speaking about a complete and utter apostasy of the Christian church? Looking at all of them together, do the sum of what these verses say, spell a total apostasy? Another verse Quoted by the LDS Church to say that there was an apostasy is:
Acts 3:20-21 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Verse 20, clearly speaks of the second coming of Christ, when Jesus shall be sent. Verse 21, says Heaven receives Jesus until the restitution of all things, again a clear reference to the second coming when Jesus will return.
What is the restitution of all things? Christ’s kingdom established upon the earth, even the earth itself being renewed.
Isaiah 65:17 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Romans 8:20-21,“For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
Also see Isaiah 11:6-9
FAIR (The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research) uses these verses to explain that a restoration must come here.
Matthew 17:11, 11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. neglecting to add… 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”
Acts 1:6-7 6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
neglecting to add… 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
Jesus said he would build his Church upon a rock
“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it,” (Matt. 16:18).
Who is the rock?
‘First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament: (http://carm.org/is-peter-the-rock)
*Matthew 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
*Matthew 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
*1 Corinthians 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
*1 Peter 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.”
We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?
If the Church is built by Jesus with himself as the foundation, how can it fall?
Some other foundation verses…
Ephesians 2:20 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Isaiah 28:16 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
1 Corinthians 3:11 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:19 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Luke 14:28-29 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Would Jesus set out to build his Church and not first ‘count the cost,’ surely Jesus knew that if he set up his church and gave the priesthood authority, (see the previous post on this) to all the apostles, then they would eventually die out and he’d have to come and set his church up again! It says in this verse that those who set out to build and do not finish, (or what they have built is insufficient), are then mocked by all who behold it.
Look at this parable, spoken by Jesus himself! Surely we are to accept that Jesus is a wise builder, as we have already seen in Matthew 16:18, Jesus said he built the church upon a rock. In this parable Jesus is saying that when you build upon a rock, a sure foundation, when the floods come the house (or church) will stand.
Matthew 7:24-27 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
By saying that the Christian Church fell into a total Apostasy, the LDS Church is basically calling Jesus a fool, not able to adhere to his own teaching.
Ephesians 3:21 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
For the Church to have fallen into Apostasy, Pauls prayer here must not have been answered. Jesus also must not have received an answer to this prayer…
John 179-23 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me–so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Jesus says’s here, ‘as you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world!’ How was Jesus sent into the world? With power and authority!
He also says in verse 20, that he is praying not just for them, (the believers of that time) but for those who will believe in him through their message! Who are they? They are the people who the believers directly witness to, but they are also those who read their message in Gods word and believe, they are the Christians of today.
Jesus in his prayer repeatedly speaks about Gods word…
6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
John 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
We come to know God through the word he has given us, believing in the message of Jesus, accepting the sacrifice that he made for us, and trusting in this alone to save us. Being sanctified, through the truth, which is his word, resulting in good works.
2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jesus has given us his word, the Bible, through which we are to attain truth, he says so himself in his prayer as we have just seen. He doesn’t speak of giving us his priesthood authority, but his word, his truth. This being the case would God alow the bible be distorted, loosing many precious parts as the LDS church teaches?
What authority do Christians have?
Matthew 28:16-20 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Was Jesus only speaking to the eleven? ‘Teach all nations’! How would this be possible for the eleven? The only way for this verse to make sense is to say, that this verse applies not only to those who were present but to those who they would reach with Gods message, and so on, even applying to Christians today. In verse 20 Jesus says…and lo, I am with you even unto the very end of the world. Again clearly Jesus is not speaking only to the eleven or how would this be possible. Jesus is with his people, his Chuch, even to the very end of the world!
Our authority comes not of ourselves but through Jesus! He says in Verse 17, All power is given unto me….Go ye therefore! As Believers we have power and Authority through His name, not an authority apart from him. As a Father with a family Business would allow his Son to use the authorithy that His name carries. So Our Father allows his Children, those saved through trusting in the name of Jesus Christ to use the authority that that name carries.
Mark 16:17 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Acts 4:10,12 …It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth… [12] Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Jesus says to the 70…
Luke 10
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Matthew28:20
Verse 20 is an interesting verse, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you! Many of teachings and Ordenances of the LDS church are simply not in the Bible. The LDS Church is believed to be the ‘restoration of all things’. The church restored to how they were in the times of Jesus. But is it? Did the early Christian church have wards and stakes? Temples and Temple recommends? In order for the LDS church to be true, there would simply have to have been an apostasy, and if there wasn’t, then the LDS Church can’t be true.
Small problem here: You make the statement “By saying that the Christian Church fell into a total Apostasy, the LDS Church is basically calling Jesus a fool, not able to adhere to his own teaching.”
This statement is a foolish statement, misrepresenting everything we teach, and thus your entire point (at least in this regard) is based on a false foundation.
Christ is the rock, and as long as the church is built on that rock it cannot fall. The problem is that after the apostles died corrupt leaders took the church off that rock, for they corrupted the truth of who Christ is and what he did for us. Once this happened the sure foundation of Christ was lost and the church fell.
It is not that Christ did anything wrong, but that men did, and they paid the price for it.
I also notice that not a single verse you sight is actually found in our Bible Dictionary under the heading of “Apostasy of the Early Christian Church.” Now I do not say the verses you sight are not used by the membership, but the the church itself does not cite these verse (from what I can tell) as evidence of the apostasy. I don’t suppose you could address the verses that id does cite?
The LDS backs up its claims of apostasy with these verses, Amos 8:11-12, Isaiah 60:2,
Acts 20:29-30, Gal 1:6-9, 1 Tim 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2 Tim 3:1-5, 4:2-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3, Rev 3:14-17. None of these verses say there will be a total apostasy.
The following web site references most of the above verses I cited. http://institute.lds.org/manuals/missionary-preparation-student-manual/miss-2-8.asp
Taken from chapter 8 (Prophets and Apostasy) of the Missionary preparation students manual. Scriptures to Study and Ponder
• Matthew 24:24
• Acts 20:29–30
• 1 Corinthians 11:18–19
• Galatians 1:6–8
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3
• 2 Timothy 1:15
■ President Thomas S. Monson, a counselor in the First Presidency, described factors leading to the Great Apostasy:
“Most men did not come unto Christ, nor did they follow the way He taught. Crucified was the Lord, slain were most of the Apostles, rejected was the truth. The bright sunlight of enlightenment slipped away, and the lengthening shadows of a black night enshrouded the earth.
“Generations before, Isaiah had prophesied, ‘Darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people’ [ Isaiah 60:2 ]. Amos had foretold of a famine in the land, ‘not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord’ [ Amos 8:11 ]. The dark ages of history seemed never to end. Would no heavenly messengers make their appearance?” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1997, 73; or Ensign, May 1997, 51 ).
The other verses are quoted from FAIR a recognised Mormon apologetics organisation, which you can check for yourself from the link.
You said, ‘Christ is the rock, and as long as the church is built on that rock it cannot fall.’ Then immediately went on to say that it did in fact fall? You can’t have it both ways!
You said, ‘The problem is that after the apostles died corrupt leaders took the church off that rock’ That’s quite a statement to make. Yes we can look at the early Christian Church and see some problems but how can you make the claim that the church was ‘taken off that rock.’
Show me scripture from the bible that supports this view.
You said, ‘You make the statement “By saying that the Christian Church fell into a total Apostasy, the LDS Church is basically calling Jesus a fool, not able to adhere to his own teaching.”This statement is a foolish statement, misrepresenting everything we teach’
I appreciate this is not what the LDS Church teaches but it is the implication.
Matthew 7:24-27(KJV)
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
According to the LDS View of apostasy, Jesus was not able to hold his church together. Joseph Smith understood this as he boasted of being the only man ever to do so.
Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
Jesus said,
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Jesus said he would be with us until the very end of the world, he didn’t leave the fate of his church in Human hands but keeps it safely in his own.
Vicky’s piece is spot on!! The LDS church maintains that the gates of Hell DID prevail against Jesus Christ…this is against the Bible and blasphemous.
There are NO biblical verses that support a Complete apostasy. The LDS church needs a complete apostasy, before it can claim any truth to the BOM. This is also NOT to forget the 3 Nephites and John the Apostle.
John.
No Vicky’s piece is not spot on, Matt 16:13-19 does not say that His church would be built upon Peter the rock, a careful reading of the context of the verses will show that the Saviour was saying that the principle of Peter receiving revelation from God that Jesus was the Christ would be what His Church WOULD be built on. And when the apostles were killed revelation from God to His prophets ceased, and this caused the great falling away.
Could you please tell me if the Church of Jesus Christ remained on the earth and was not taken away why was in necessary three hundred years later for the council of Nicea called to discuss amongst other things this very topic, which resulted in Constantine proclaiming Christianity the state capital of Rome. Following this logic why are you not al catholic. Jeff Walsh
I’m not going to address the Peter comment as i have alredy covered this in my post, I do believe though that you are reading your pre-disposed view into the text.
This was taken from
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm
Basically explaining that the Nicene Creed was drawn up to refute Heretical ideas that were coming into the Church.
‘When the Nicene Creed was drawn up, the chief enemy was Arianism, which denied that Jesus was fully God. Arius was a presbyter (elder) in Alexandria in Egypt, in the early 300′s. He taught that the Father, in the beginning, created (or begot) the Son, and that the Son, in conjunction with the Father, then proceeded to create the world. The result of this was to make the Son a created being, and hence not God in any meaningful sense. It was also suspiciously like the theories of those Gnostics and pagans who held that God was too perfect to create something like a material world, and so introduced one or more intermediate beings between God and the world. God created A, who created B, who created C, . . . who created Z, who created the world. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, sent for Arius and questioned him. Arius stuck to his position, and was finally excommunicated by a council of Egyptian bishops. He went to Nicomedia in Asia, where he wrote letters defending his position to various bishops. Finally, the Emperor Constantine summoned a council of Bishops in Nicea (across the straits from modern Istanbul), and there in 325 the Bishops of the Church, by a decided majority, repudiated Arius and produced the first draft of what is now called the Nicene Creed.’
Any Church that did not then agree with the creed was then considered to be not within orthodoxy.
Vicky,
But what if Arius was right and Alexander was wrong, What if the concept of God which the council reached was wrong. Then the whole basis for the understanding of the Godhead would be based on error. Where would this leave the whole world of Christianity, which is built upon this concept of the Godhead?
Article 1 of the Church of England states:-
There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of
infinite power, wisdom and goodness; the Maker and Preserver of all things, both visible
and invisible, And in unity of this Godhead, there be three persons of one substance,
power, and eternity, the Father, the Son. and the Holy Ghost.
In a commentary on the 39 articles of the Church of England the author states that it is apparent that the wording of the article was directed at speculators against this doctrine.One of these speculators is said to be an obscure sect called the Anthropormorphites who believed that God was in the form of a man, material, and with body and members like our own. In a footnote to this it says, “The Mormons are anthropormophites”. (An Exposition of the Thirty Nine Articles by Edward Harold Brown. DD (Lord Bishop of Winchester) P 13.
Wow is it possible that Joseph Smith did not dream all this up after all, seeing that they were discussing this many centuries before?
The commentary goes on to outline a rather tortuous argument to try and show that the early apostles and church leaders believed in the trinity, but admits that it was not until the year 200 AD that the three in one God appeared.
Lets look a little closer at Article 1. If there is but one living and true God, without body, parts and passions, and there are 3 persons of one substance in unity in this Godhead, it would to my mind beg the question, what happened to the resurrected body of Jesus Christ: that certainly was a corporial body as the Saviour demonstrated to Thomas who doubted the fact of the resurrection, the Saviour invited Thomas to feel the wounds in his hands and feet, and thrust his hand into the spear wound in His side. So I ask again what happened to this body, was it absorbed into this mass of nothingness which is described above?.
With the whole of the above in mind maybe Joseph Smith’s experience at his first vision was not so unbelievable after all, and it just might be that D&C 130:22 is right after all when it says:-
“The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangable as man’s , the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”.
Oh and by the way the creed says that Jesus Christ stands at the right hand of the Father, how can this be so if the Godhead has no parts? Jeff Walsh
In addition to the above, lets look at the some other implications, a careful reading of the epistles sent by Paul, Peter, James and John etc. each one of them was pleading with the Churches that they had organised among the various cities and places they had taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to, not turn away from the truths they had taught, Most of them warning of the falling away from the teachings of Christ.
Why is the canon of scripture not carried on beyond the times of the Apostles?
The Church was not built upon Peter, how could it be, remember, Peter was a weak man, a man who denied Christ 3 times, how could the Lord trust any man to build His Church upon.
The Church of Jesus Christ, as a careful reading of Matt 16:13-19 shows, was to be built upon revelation from God, the same revelation which told Peter that Jesus was the Christ.
Following the death of the apostles, including Peter, Paul, and the other apostles, apart from John, the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ was taken away, and revelation from God ceased.
The splinted remnants of the Church organised by the apostles, without divine direction, fell into apostasy.
If the Church continued as you say it did why is the canon of scripture silent for the many years up to the convening of the Council of Nice.
Where is the evidence that the falling away did not continue after the apostleship was taken away.
Are you saying that there was only one church represented by the 325 Bishops, if so why did they have to debate the personality of the Godhead, surely the truths which the Saviour commissioned the apostles to take to all the world would teach this, there would be no need for debate.
In the early days of the apostle Paul’s teaching he was having to contend with at least 4 different factions as evidenced in 1 Cor 1:10-13, he was warning then of the divisions that had began even in these early days. This idea that there one Church which survived down to 325 AD is just a myth.
In the past history of God’s involvement with His Children there have been several periods of apostasy, followed by times when the gospel has been dispensed again, we know of dispensations given to Adam. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus Christ, the scriptures also speak about the dispensation of the fulness of times. It is a mistake to assume that this is speaking of the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ. Reason would tell us that if this was the case then we must even today be living in a period of apostasy, because you cannot restore something which is already here.
The great apostasy had its beginning with the splintering of the Church of Jesus Christ and from aproximately 100 AD God had removed His authority to run His Church and also the accompanying revelation.
I cannot see how anyone can associate the pure teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ with the history of the so called “Christianity” we read about accepted by Constantine as the state religion of Rome. The history of the wickedness and debauchary of this ruling Church evidenced by the sale of indulgenses, the supposed Isidorian Decretals, which has now been proved a forgery, which claimed that there has been an unbroken line of popes down to the present one, The wickedness of the leadership of this ruling church etc etc.
We would search in vain for evidence of a Church which taught the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, how did it survive? The simple answer is it didn’t. But God did not leave us completely alone He inspired reformers such as Luther, Zwingle, Calvin, Wycliffe, Knox and many more, and this prepared the way for Joseph Smith, the last great “reformer”
When all this is taken into consideration there seems to me no alternative but to accept that as predicted in the New Teastament there would have to be a restoration of these pure teachings. The Book of Acts predicts that this has to happen prepare for the Lord’s return. This restoration would have to happen in the same way other dispensations began, and that is God speaking from heaven and calling a new prophet and commissioning him to be the vehicle that God would use to bring about this restoration.
I suppose this post will bring about a whole string of scriptures with opinions and conjecture “proving” this to be false, but what is the alternative, that a secret underground movement has survived which teaches the truth? Or that someone has taken upon themselves the authority to once more teach these things, supposing that a book, no matter how much we love and treasure it, gives us the right to take this authority upon ourselves.
I have always looked at the gospel of Jesus Christ as being logical and reasonable, true miraculous things happen, but in general it makes sense, it does not make sense that the Lord would change his methods for his involvement in the affairs of mankind, he is guiding His Church today the same way he has always done whenever the Gospel has been dispensed from heaven, and that is by calling and speaking to Prophets today.
By the way Vicky you say that any Church which did not agree with the creed was un-orthodox, well I am happy to be called by this label, and wether you want to call us by this label or as a cult or any other derogatory tag I am happy to live with it. The Church of Jesus Christ has always come under ridicule and persecution so it is not something new.
Finally if you want to call me an apologist please do, but I do not have anything to apologise for as do others who are trying to follow the path that leads to exaltation. Say Hi to Bobby for me. Kind regards Jeff Walsh
Hi Jeff just a quick thing you said that amused me a little.
I suppose this post will bring about a whole string of scriptures with opinions and conjecture “proving” this to be false, but what is the alternative, that a secret underground movement has survived which teaches the truth? Or that someone has taken upon themselves the authority to once more teach these things, supposing that a book, no matter how much we love and treasure it, gives us the right to take this authority upon ourselves.
So you are saying I suppose you will now bring evidence to the contrary of what I said….. I think you can count on that :)
Oh and by the way reread Talmage’s book , but this time with the attitude that it may be true. Jeff
‘But what if Arius was right and Alexander was wrong, What if the concept of God which the council reached was wrong. Then the whole basis for the understanding of the Godhead would be based on error. Where would this leave the whole world of Christianity, which is built upon this concept of the Godhead?’
Thats a big what if! What if the Jehovahs witnesses are right, or maybe Islam? These are statements of equal significance. You pointed out the arian views of the LDS Church, but the fact that a heretical idea has appeared once before in history does not make it any more viable today.
(I’m currently working on a post titled ‘Does God have a body?’ at the moment which will probably be on here within the week so i don’t want to get into that too much here.)
‘Lets look a little closer at Article 1. If there is but one living and true God, without body, parts and passions, and there are 3 persons of one substance in unity in this Godhead, it would to my mind beg the question, what happened to the resurrected body of Jesus Christ: that certainly was a corporial body…?
This does not cause a problem to me, Jesus was incarnate in human flesh, from that point on he has had a body. After the resurrection Jesus had a body and has a body today in heaven, bearing the scars of his ordeal. How would you see this to be a problem?
Oh and by the way the creed says that Jesus Christ stands at the right hand of the Father, how can this be so if the Godhead has no parts?
This is one example from the many in the Bible of Anthopomorphism, this is where God communicates to us through human terms, attributing to himself Human characteristics.
Some other examples of Anthromorphasism…
Psalm 33:6(KJV) 6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 34:15(KJV) 15 The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psalm 89:10(KJV) 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
But then we have verses like…
Psalm 57:1(KJV)57 Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.
Does God then have wings?
Psalm 91:4 (KJV) 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
With feathers?
Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
If the earth is His footstool how big is Gods body? He’d have to be pretty big if this verse is a true representation of his size. Then Jesus at his side in his Human body would be minute!
Why is the canon of scripture not carried on beyond the times of the Apostles?
If the Church continued as you say it did why is the canon of scripture silent for the many years up to the convening of the Council of Nice.
Because ‘it is finished’ as Jesus said on the cross. God had revealed to us in His Son all that we need to know! If we’re not going to get it from what Jesus and Apostles taught, then we’re just not going to get it. Within the pages of the Bible we have instructions for now, and revelation of what is to come. You said up to the convening of the council? Nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered to be scripture among Christians.
The Church of Jesus Christ, as a careful reading of Matt 16:13-19 shows, was to be built upon revelation from God, the same revelation which told Peter that Jesus was the Christ.
Jesus directed us to his word throughout his prayer in John 17
John 17:6
6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
John 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Throughout his whole prayer Jesus stresses the point that is his word given to us in the Bible and preached throughout the world by believers, that reveals the truth to us.
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
I’m not saying revelation isn’t important, without it we would have no Bible! But again I say here that you are reading a pre conceived idea into this text. If you read this text with no prior knowledge of the LDS Church and its teachings I dare to say that you would not reach the same conclusion.
In the early days of the apostle Paul’s teaching he was having to contend with at least 4 different factions as evidenced in 1 Cor 1:10-13, he was warning then of the divisions that had began even in these early days. This idea that there one Church which survived down to 325 AD is just a myth.
Even during His ministry Jesus himself warned us against false teachers
Matthew 16:6
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 17:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Jesus knew and taught that false prophets and teachers were going to come in among the believers. Surely if these very same false teachers and prophets were going to be the downfall of the church Jesus would have known about it. What then? This is again implying Jesus was a pretty shoddy builder.
Joseph Smith boasted he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409
‘for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.’
Joseph smith was obviously very aware of the implications of an apostasy, if an apostasy happened then it would imply that Jesus was not ‘able to keep a whole church together.’
From the remainder of your comments I’m realising that we both have a very different understanding of Church. Am I right in thinking that you consider the Church to be something of an institution? Or like a denomination? That the early church was founded and was something like the modern day LDS Church with its branches and its wards and with the same things being taught at the same time, all coming from a governing figure at the top?
This is not my view of the early church or of the church now.
Acts 10:44-45
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Here we have people receiving the Holy Spirit without having hands laid upon them, and not as
was clearly stated, had to be the way, in General conference…
‘The gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed only after proper and authorized baptism and by the laying on of hands by those holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Lord declared: “Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. …’
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/receive-the-holy-ghost
The people mentioned in this passage received the Holy Spirit, as they heard the word of God, the Gospel truth being preached to them, in their hearts they truly believed in Jesus and what he did for them. In their hearts they received Christ.
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.” ~~~
Ephesians 2:18 says
‘For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.’
Those who have put their faith in Jesus (genuinely,) receive the forgiveness of sins and ‘in one spirit’ have access to the Father.
This is the true Church, the body of Christ, it is the collective of true believers across the world who have truly put their trust in Christ, receiving the forgiveness of their sins (past, present and future,) and the promised gift of the Holy spirit. Therefore in one spirit having access to the father.
Yes, their have been wrong teachings that have crept into many denominations over the course of history. For example, the Catholic Church, raising up of Mary, way above her position, and trusting in their own works as a means to attaining salvation. This is Mans doing. But there has always been and always will be true spirit filled believers, even within these denominations.
Mark 13:22
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
We probably have different interpretations of what the word ‘elect’ means, to me it is those chosen by God to be His. I’m sure we both agree though, that the word elect, refers to believers.
‘If it were possible’ certainly says to me that therefore it is not possible! If it is not possible for the elect to be deceived, how then could there possibly be an apostasy???
I am trying to stay out of this discussion so Vicky can have some dialogue with you, however I have to say that Joseph Smith quote absolutely amazes me, a guy that claimed to restore the true Church of Jesus Christ out of a supposed apostasy makes that boast, of course you will say he was speaking as a man and waesnt perfect but come on!!!!! If only Thomas Monson was remotely as much fun in the things he says as Joseph was, seriously suicide and depression in Utah would not be so high as the sense of humour would have to be a lot higher.
Vicky.
“Thats a big what if! What if the Jehovahs witnesses are right, or maybe Islam? These are statements of equal significance. You pointed out the arian views of the LDS Church, but the fact that a heretical idea has appeared once before in history does not make it any more viable today.”
Who said the Arian view was heretical? Leaders of splintered churches, who, without divine revelation had fallen away from the pure teachings of Christ and the Apostles!!!!!!
Look what happened through the periods of apostasy in the past, they turned to idolatry, worshipping false Gods and graven images, and you do not have to look far at the Church which was adopted by the Roman Empire to see how that did the same. That church surely was not the Church of Jesus Christ.
“This does not cause a problem to me, Jesus was incarnate in human flesh, from that point on he has had a body. After the resurrection Jesus had a body and has a body today in heaven, bearing the scars of his ordeal. How would you see this to be a problem?”
This is not a problem to me, A resurrected body can never die again, so Jesus Christ has a body today just like His Father, so the Saviour can stand at His Father’s right hand.
Oh and please do not quote “God is a spirit”, I know this ,we are all spirits, clothed with a physical body, Heavenly Father’s body though is different than ours, He is like our Saviour clothed in a resurrected bodty
“This is one example from the many in the Bible of Anthopomorphism, this is where God communicates to us through human terms, attributing to himself Human characteristics.”
Our Heavenly Father is a perfected human being, he does not have to “atribute to Himself human characeristics”, which implies that He is normaly something else. His humanity allows Him to feel compassion, He has eyes that can see His children and ears to hear our Prayers, a heart that can understand the pains and suffering that we endure, the figurative language that you quote from Psalms and Isaiah are just that, but these verses do not negate the others which are not figurative.
“Because ‘it is finished’ as Jesus said on the cross. God had revealed to us in His Son all that we need to know! If we’re not going to get it from what Jesus and Apostles taught, then we’re just not going to get it. Within the pages of the Bible we have instructions for now, and revelation of what is to come. You said up to the convening of the council? Nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered to be scripture among Christians. ”
I think you are wresting the scripture here, When Jesus said “It is Finished”, He was saying that the great mission he had come to earth to accomplish was finished, in Gethsemane and on the cross he had worked out the great Atonement
Are you asking us to accept that your interpretation of the fragmentary record of what we have in the New Teastament of the life of Jesus and the apostles is all that our Heavenly Father is ever going to give us, if you are then I am afraid that you are blinckered and do not really understand the Plan of Salvation, Adam was given revelation for his time and people, Enoch for his, Noah and his people following the flood, Abraham for his time and people, Moses for the guidance of Israel, and Jesus Christ was continually saying that He was being led by revelation from His Father. But what you are saying is that your interpretation of a few passages of scripture gives you the right to change Our Heavenly Fathers method for His administeration of the guidance of His Children. You are wrong when you say that the instructions in the New Testament are for us now, they were for the people living when the Saviour and the Apostles were performing their mission. I accept that the laws and ordinances of the Gospel are for all time, such as the 10 commandments and the sermon on the mount, but to say that our Heavenly Father has left us on our own. If that is the God you worship, then He is not the one I worship.
You say that nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered scripture by Christians!!!! The Catholic and Anglican and Protestant Churches have as their 1st article of faith concerning the doctrine of the Godhead the nicene creed, did not this come from that council?, By the way are you saying then that your Church is considered unauthodox?
You next mention John 17. This is the great intercessory prayer where the Saviour is thanking His Father for giving Him His Apostles, except Judas of course, He is pleading with His Father to be with and protect the Apostles and all those who believe on their words, and come into the Church. Your conclusion is flawed when you say that Jesus stressed the point that it is His word in the Bible that reveals the truth to us, No, the bible had not then been written, what brought the truth to the apostles was the teachings of Christ and then given to the people by His Authorised apostles. This was evidenced throuhout the Acts and the rest of the letters sent to the different
Churches. I think it is your organisation that has the pre-conceived idea that the Bible as interpreted by you gives you authority to preach His Word. As I have said before No one can take upon themselves this honour except he be called of God by revelation and the laying on of hands by someone who has that authority.
There are scriptures which did predict the eventual apostasy from the Church of Jesus Christ, and I give a couple here:-
” Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord.
And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, and they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it”. (Amos 8:11-12)
“Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the 2nd Coming) and by our gathering together unto him
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, not by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ be at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the 2nd coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
There have been times throughout this earths history that God has withdrawn His Gospel i.e. the periods of apostasy already stated above, but does that mean tha God is a “shoddy builder”,? This comes near to blasphemy.
You criticise Jospeh Smith, I think from a pre-considered stand point that he was a false prophet, well I do not, Maybe his words do come across as boasting, he was a man after all, but to say that “Jesus could not keep a whole Church together” and he could, well there was a falling away from the early Church and no amount of false interpretations of scripture will say differently, and I hope and pray that the Lord will open your closed mind to this fact sometime.
The Church which the Apostles founded had overseers (Bishops) and the members were called saints, and although you do not have the same understanding of “church” as I do please show me where you can justify a different organisation. I remind you that even though I believe they belonged to corrupt Churches, there were 325 Bishops at the council of Nicea. The Quorum of the Apostles were at the head of the churches and Peter the chief Apostle presumably presided over the organisation. The things you seem to sneer at by saying , “with the same things being taught at the same time”, is called the Gospel of Jesus Christ!!!
If you would like me to spell out the difference between “The Holy Spirit” and “the gift of the Holy Ghost” I will, but for now, the Holy Spirit can be felt by many people, but the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given following baptism by the laying on of hands, as evidenced in the New Testament.
By the way it is my understanding that we receive Christ after we are “born again” not necessarlly when we are baptised, As the Saviour said to Peter, “when thou art converted ”
strengthen thy brethren. By the way I believe that being born again is not an EVENT is a PROCESS.
We receive forgiveness of sins through repentance, this is an ongoing process, because I believe we all sin and fall short. Wherever have we been promised forgiveness for future sins? does that mean you are not held accountaable for sins you commit in the future?
You say that there has always been the true Church of Christ on the earth please show me documentery evidence of this.
The elect of God are the ones Jesus Christ was speaking about in his prayer in John 17, these are the ones who are taught the gospel by “AUTHORISED” servants of God and endure to the end, by striving to live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. And yes if you believe that the elect cannot be deceived then you are not truly aware of the power of Satan, and have you ever considered that maybe you have been deceived into taking upon you this ministry your organisation claim to have been given, are you sure that you are acting with God’s blessing, and not the adversary
We are living in a time just preceeding the 2nd coming, Satan has not much time left because when the Saviour returns he will be bound for a thousand years. He I am sure he is gathering his forces together for a final onslaught against the Church of Jesus Christ, please make sure you are on the right side in this final battle.
Bobby,
You are getting very cynical lately, Have you ever considered that maybe you also could be on the wrong side of this battle? I can accuse you as having pre-conceived ideas about the LDS Church, How much time, finance and effort you and your organisation spend trying to bring about the downfall of the Lord’s Church could in my estimation be spent better in trying to speak to nations, countries and peoples who have not heard of Jesus Christ, not to say the great masses of people who do not even believe in God.
As you say Joseph Smith I believe got a little carried away, he was human after all but to infer that because of this he should not be considered a true prophet is absurd. By the way President Monson is quite funny at times, maybe you missed it on your one visit to Conference.
There are lies, damn lies and statistics, they can be shown any way you want to slant them. But are you implying by advertising the fact on your web site that it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that is causing this suicide and depression? I could turn it round to say that it is the Satanic attack on the Church that is causing people to be depressed, but I do not believe this also’
I remind you again Bobby of what one of our Prophets has said and I would aim this at the ones who are publishing all this garbage aimed at Joseph Smith and the Church.
“There have been some who have belittled Joseph Smith, but I would like to say that those who have done so will be forgotten and their remains will go back to mother earth…..and the odor of their infamy will never die, while the glory and honor and majesty and courage and fidelity manifested by the Prophet Joseph Smith will attatch to his name forever. (George Albert Smith Conference report april 1946 p 182).
Bobby I will though aim this at your organisation and others who seek to impeed the progress of the Church
“Our Missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palastine, New Holland, Australia, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been errected
No unhallowed hand can stop the work of God from progressing, Persecution may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, CALUMNY MAY DEFAME, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly and independantly, until it has penetrated every continent and visited every clime, swept over the country and sounded in every ear till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” Jeff Walsh
Now then Jeff
I am no more or less cynical than I was before I met you, and I am a million miles away from that consideration. I possibly got carried away with what I said last night however I am very passionate about and very in love with Jesus. He is the most important thing to me in the world over my wife, my child, even over reaching out to Mormons (which is after my wife and child too) so when I see that Joseph Smith quote, a man who I feel distorted Christianity actually boast that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together and as a result has people like you trying so hard to defend him (which is not a dig at you at all, you are sticking with what you believe) then you might get stronger responses from me, mostly though I think staying calm and friendly is the best way.
The suicide and depression issue deserves a blog post, however for me (and i may be alone on this in our discussion) I think when a state that is 68% Mormon is shown to be the most depressed in America and fairly high on suicide either the 32% needs to be sectioned immediately or there are issues, I have also heard many stories of this on the ground and am in touch with a couple of people who have lost people through this, I will do a post on it and you can comment away.
Wow so a prophet warned that people would speak against Joseph Smith, thats amazing how could they have possibly known that……well im sure you know what I mean.
Persecution, persecution arent those anti-Mormons horrible they put their websites up and say those horrible things, we must be the true church then as no one does that for other faiths……..lets look at what persecution is.
I just typed in “Christians killed” on google and got these hits, check them out.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/04/nigerian-extremists-open-fire-on-christian-worshippers-killing-around-20.html
http://www.agi.it/english-version/world/elenco-notizie/201209111507-cro-ren1061-three_young_christians_killed_in_northeastern_nigeria
I typed in Christians imprisoned
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/13/nadarkhani-free-but-irans-jails-hold-many-more-christian-pastors/
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/08/christian-pastor-jailed-in-iran-for-3-years-is-freed-watchdog-group-says/
this was after a couple of seconds of searching, Christians around the world are still dying and being imprisoned on a regular basis because of their faith, is this happening with Mormons? Try typing in Mormons killed on google and you will see what I mean, its just not happening. Yet you claim truth from persecution because Bobby Gilpin and others made a website, you know absolutely nothing about persecution Jeff.
Ok that will do, one thing on your discussion with Vicky (which I am trying to stay out of but I think your the same as me we love these discussions)
You said this
You say that there has always been the true Church of Christ on the earth please show me documentery evidence of this.
Vicky is the one who spends the most time looking after our house and 2 year old, which is why her responses are always a little longer to come than mine, she does not have time to go through all of church history, if she can show that Jesus was confident His church would last then to be honest thats plenty for us, as if He was wrong on that its a dark road to start going down, this is a little contradictory on your part as there are aspects of history that do not support Mormonism (in fact many) but you keep holding onto the prophets, for the sake of time (however this could be a blog post one day) we are gonna hold onto Jesus. Its a bit of a cop out but we just dont have time to trawl through church history for that long.
Talk soon
Ok, maybe closed minded would probably be a better word.
As for Joseph Smith, I do not have to defend him, the Saviour called him His friend, he actually saw Jesus Christ, on many occasions, he was in communication with the Lord almost constantly, he received many revelations from Him, he died and received a martyers reward, and Bobby whether you believe it or not at some future time you also will know that he was and is the prophet of this dispensation. I suggest you read Isaiah chapter 29, especially verses 18 to 22, you could very well be in danger of doing the things that Isaiah warned about.
Bobby you do not know why people are depressed or why they commit suicide, it does not say a lot for your compassion or your impartiality to asume that they are being influenced by the Church, I would have thought it does nothing for your cause to highlight this, all it does is to strengthen my belief that you are closed minded.
I think that this closed mindedness also influences you to make a mock of a Prophets word, what President George Albert Smith was saying was people who belittle him will be forgotten in time to come along with their infamy, whilst Joseph Smiths name will be remembered forever.
Bobby I am amazed, for one who seems to pride himself on being up to date with all things Mormon especially as you portray a knowledge of so much early Mormon history to even suggest that the Mormon people have not suffered persecution,
Did you conveniently forget to mention in your google search, Robert Elmer Kleason who murdered 2 mormon missionaries, and then dismembered their bodies, Zarate Wilka Armed force of libertation bombed an LDS chapel killing 2 missionaries, between 1999 and 2006 3 LDS missionaries were killed, in 2008 2 sister missionaries were raped and robbed.
Then lets start to look at what Joseph Smith meant when he talked about persecution, he was ridiculed as a young boy by so called christian clergy for saying he had seeen God, he was hounded from pillar to post, tarred and feathered, constantly being brought before the courts in trumped up charges, and never once being found guilty, and please do not insult my inteligence by bringing up the 1826 trial, the $2:68 was the judges fee for trying the case, it did not prove him guilty. He was imprisoned without a trial for many months, he died at the hands of a painted face mob of 500 men, being led and instigated by so called christian clergy.
Lets look now at more persecution you must have conveniently forgot. Members of the Church in Jackson County Missoiuri were driven from their homes by another satanic mob aided by an extermination order issued by Governer Boggs. They could not receive any redress for their homes and property they had bought, even after an appeal to the President of America because if he had granted redress he would have lost the vote of the whole state. How could you have overlooked the Hauns Mill massacre where again the same mob killed men women and children 17 of them in cold blood, injuring many more.
After this the church moved to Commerce a malaria filled swamp land and drained the land and built one of the largest cities in Illinois naming it Nauvoo. What happened there, following Jospeh and Hyrum Smith’s assasination the saints were again driven out, again leaving their homes and farms Again by a mob led by hate filled clergy, again without redress, driven out by the way in the middle of winter
This forced the saints to trek 1200 miles west where they thought they would be left in peace, what happened on this trek over the years, many hundreds died, maybe even thousands when we count the hardships they endured, some of them never regaining their full health.
I’ll not even bother going into detail when even today so called “Christian” zealots congregate outside the Conference Centre with their ragamuffin cohorts, “demonstrating” with their shouting and howling, it reminds me of the priests of Baal demonstrating before Elijah.
By the way I do not consider any of the web sites as persecution, just ignorance of the truth.
As for trawling through Church History, apart from Josephus, Mosheim and a couple of others, there is no history apart from the Catholic Church to look at until the reformation began a strong pointer that a history of the true Church of Jesus Christ did not exist. Thus the need for a restoration.
Seriously Bobby after your last post I am beginning to wonder if this meeting we have arranged would not just be a waste of time, it would seem that you are so set in your closed mindedness and maybe I am in mine that no good would come from it. What do you think. Jeff
Well im no more or less small minded haha but maybe that says it all.
Obviously we disagree on the points you raised, i think its very debatable how much of what the lds church experienced in ita early days was persecution. What happened to the missionaries was horrible and i would not seek to undermine that in anyway. My point was not to get in a war of who is persecuted more, though you will see my examples were much more current but rather in my experience mormons often cry persecution at the mere challenge of the truthfulness of mormonism, i find that to be pathetic.
Regarding the suicide and depression issue that is now high on my posts to do list.
I did wonder how long it would be before you talked about cancelling our meeting but that was quick. If you expect me to walk out of it wanting to be a mormon then yes it would be a waste of time, however if you want to have some positive discussion and you want to help me understand you and your position better then yeah it sounds great however i will obviously bring my side to the discussion too. I have by no means come to my opinion of mormonism without a hell of a lot of time effort and money spent (and by no means gained) so if i am closed minded it took a while to get here and i am sure you are not looking to change your position either.
So anyway i am happy to meet it was your idea talk soon
Also regarding the zealots at general conference you do have my agreement and apologies (for what its worth( on that one.
I’m finding that your making statements without backing them up
‘Who said the Arian view was heretical? Leaders of splintered churches, who, without divine revelation had fallen away from the pure teachings of Christ and the Apostles!!!!!!’
Leaders of splintered churches? Says who? Without divine revelation? I already explained my take on this but you have only cited one verse to support yours.
‘Look what happened through the periods of apostasy in the past, they turned to idolatry, worshipping false Gods and graven images, and you do not have to look far at the Church which was adopted by the Roman Empire to see how that did the same. That church surely was not the Church of Jesus Christ.’
‘The periods of apostasy,’ are you talking BC here? Because every time the Jews fall into sin, and God deals with them, he reserves Himself a remnant.
Isaiah 10:20
20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Jeremiah 31:7
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Micah 2:12
12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
Check for yourself, every time the Jewish nation fell into disobedience, God delt with them, and he ALWAYS left a remnant.
After Jesus assended, the apostles died, the Christians were scattered due to persecution, and the word of God went with those Christians wherever they went throughout the known world. Manuscripts of the New Testament have been found in many different contries, this is how they got there.
Acts 8:1
8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Acts 8:4
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
And we’re not talking about just a few people..
Acts 14:1
14 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Do you really believe that every single believer was part of the catholic church? Or that all believers were part of the established Church? The early Church met in homes, there is nothing to say that many did not continue doing so. Even today I know of churches that consists of a small group of people meeting in homes. Even if the entire known established church ( and by this, i mean well known organised churches like the Roman catholic church,) went into apostasy, there is not a shred of proof (and how could there be?) that these house churches also went into apostasy! And did God choose not to leave himself a remnant this time?
Acts 2:46
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 5:42
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 16:19
19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
‘Our Heavenly Father is a perfected human being, he does not have to “atribute to Himself human characeristics”, which implies that He is normaly something else.’ His humanity allows Him to feel compassion, He has eyes that can see His children and ears to hear our Prayers, a heart that can understand the pains and suffering that we endure, the figurative language that you quote from Psalms and Isaiah are just that, but these verses do not negate the others which are not figurative.’
Which others? You haven’t given me any scriptural references to back up what your saying!
‘I think you are wresting the scripture here, When Jesus said “It is Finished”, He was saying that the great mission he had come to earth to accomplish was finished, in Gethsemane and on the cross he had worked out the great Atonement’
I think you’ve misunderstood me here, I wasn’t saying that Jesus meant the Bible was finished, how could it have been the apostles hadn’t wrote the NT yet, I was simply making a play on words, trying to make a point.
‘Are you asking us to accept that your interpretation of the fragmentary record of what we have in the New Teastament of the life of Jesus and the apostles is all that our Heavenly Father is ever going to give us…?’
In Old Testament times God sent prophets, and spoke to the people through them. He spoke to them about their own times, and also of things to come. God used the Old Testament prophets to prepare the Jews to receive the Christ, giving many, many revelations about Him. This was until John…
Luke 16:16 ‘The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it’ (Luke 16:16, NIV throughout).
With Christ also came a new covenant…
Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Romans 3:20-2420 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
‘You are wrong when you say that the instructions in the New Testament are for us now, they were for the people living when the Saviour and the Apostles were performing their mission.’
on what are you basing this?
I accept that the laws and ordinances of the Gospel are for all time, such as the 10 commandments and the sermon on the mount, but to say that our Heavenly Father has left us on our own. If that is the God you worship, then He is not the one I worship.’
I agree, unfortunately, the Mormon God is not the God of the Bible.
You say that nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered scripture by Christians!!!! The Catholic and Anglican and Protestant Churches have as their 1st article of faith concerning the doctrine of the Godhead the Nicene creed, did not this come from that council?, By the way are you saying then that your Church is considered unauthodox?
Yes, but it is not scripture. The LDS Church may have other books considered scripture apart from the Bible. But the Christian Church does not. (One exception, the Catholic Church cannonised the apocrypha. This is not considered scripture by any other denomination, as far as I am aware) The Nicene Creed is a statement of beliefs that Churches agree upon, nothing else.
‘Your conclusion is flawed when you say that Jesus stressed the point that it is His word in the Bible that reveals the truth to us, No, the bible had not then been written, what brought the truth to the apostles was the teachings of Christ and then given to the people by His Authorised apostles. This was evidenced throuhout the Acts and the rest of the letters sent to the different Churches.’
The Bible had been written as far as the Old Testament was concerned. Jesus and the apostles quoted from it regularly. The New Testament was then written by the apostles, Jesus taught them, so that they could teach others, he commissioned them to go into all the world spreading the gosple, and equipped them with the holy spirit at Pentecost to write the New Testament.
Mark 16:14-20
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Holy spirit brought to the Apostles remembrance of the words of Jesus so that they could preach them to the world and record them down for generations to come.
That’s one point, you mentioned about the Holy Ghost and Holy spirit. When I say Holy Spirit I mean Holy Ghost. We do not use the wording Holy Ghost, you most likely do because it is the term used in the King James, which I may quote from, (for the sake of Mormon readers) but do not personally use.
” Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord.
And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, and they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it”. ” Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord.
And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, and they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it”. (Amos 8:11-12)
I believe this prophecy is referring to the 400 year gap, where there was no prophet speaking the word of God after Malachi until the New Testament times. This ended with the coming of John the Baptist. 400 years of silence, no prophet, no revelation. This sounds like a famine of the word of God doesn’t it?
“Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the 2nd Coming) and by our gathering together unto him
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, not by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ be at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the 2nd coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.’
I understand that you believe that this has already happened, but scriptuarly you have not and cannot prove this. You are taking it on Faith, Faith in what the apostles of the LDS Church have said, but not faith In what the Bible has said. I believe this refers to a time to come, before the end times. In the same sentence it says, ‘that there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed’, do you believe that this has already happened also?
‘You criticise Jospeh Smith, I think from a pre-considered stand point that he was a false prophet, well I do not, Maybe his words do come across as boasting, he was a man after all, but to say that “Jesus could not keep a whole Church together” and he could, well there was a falling away from the early Church and no amount of false interpretations of scripture will say differently, and I hope and pray that the Lord will open your closed mind to this fact sometime.’
So are you agreeing with him here? You haven’t answered my point, by saying that there was an apostasy, the LDS Church is as good as saying that Jesus was unable to keep his church together, and here is Joseph Smith, the Founder of the church stating just that.
‘but the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given following baptism by the laying on of hands, as evidenced in the New Testament.’
Again you have not addressed my point here…
Acts 10:44-45
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
How was this so, if what you are saying is the case???
Vicky
“Leaders of splintered churches? Says who? Without divine revelation? I already explained my take on this but you have only cited one verse to support yours”
Virtually every letter which the apostles sent to the churches was arguing against the false teachings apostasy and divisions that was taking place, and where would they get their revelation from when the apostles were killed? So if this was happening whilst the apostles were still living, are you saying that the churches all turned back to the gospel later and continued for 250 years or so, and the 325 bishops were all “New Testament Christians”?
‘”The periods of apostasy,’ are you talking BC here? Because every time the Jews fall into sin, and God deals with them, he reserves Himself a remnant.”
I am talking about the periods of apostasy between the early years of the Bible, between Adam and Enoch, between Enoch and Noah, between Noah and Abraham, Between Abraham and Moses. these were the times when the people were idolatrous.
Vicky, I should not have to explain to you that the scriptures you give were not speaking solely about the Jews, they were only 1 of the tribes of Jacob or Israel, when the Lord was talking about a remnant He is not specifically speaking about the Jews.
Much of Isaiah 10 is speaking of a time just preceeding the 2nd Coming, he sees that a remnant of Israel will turn back to the Lord.
Similarly Jeremiah Chapter 31 is speaking of the last days also.
If you would really study Micah much of the whole book is speaking again of the last days when the great gathering of Israel will be taking place.
The next section of your post is pure supposition, just because things happen today does not mean it has happened in time past. Why would there have to be a reformation in Luthers day if the true Church of Jesus Christ was on the earth?
“Which others? You haven’t given me any scriptural references to back up what your saying!”
If you had followed my reasoning I was talking about the scriptures that said our Heavenly Father had eyes, ears, mouth, hands etc. differing from verses that speak about wings etc.
“I think you’ve misunderstood me here, I wasn’t saying that Jesus meant the Bible was finished, how could it have been the apostles hadn’t wrote the NT yet, I was simply making a play on words, trying to make a point.”
No Vicky all I said was that the statement “It is finished” was the completion of the Saviour’s mission, all the rest of what you said was pure supposition, I remind you what you said:-
Because ‘it is finished’ as Jesus said on the cross. God had revealed to us in His Son all that we need to know! If we’re not going to get it from what Jesus and Apostles taught, then we’re just not going to get it. Within the pages of the Bible we have instructions for now, and revelation of what is to come. You said up to the convening of the council? Nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered to be scripture among Christians.
The next section of your post is differentiating between, the “law” which was the law of Moses, and the higher laws of the gospel which the Saviour brought with HIm
“on what are you basing this?”
On the fact that whenever God spoke to His Prophets he was giving the guidance and revelation for there own day and the conditions they were living in. For example, in Noah’s day the people were living Idolatrous lives God gave revelation to construct an ark because he was about to cleans the earth, In Moses’s day he gave revelation for the governing of the people during the 40 years spent in the wilderness, also the building of the portable tabanacle or temple. In Jesus’s day Heavenly father spoke and gave guidance for living during the Roman Occupation, and so on.
I fully agree with you that the God I worship is not the one your interpretation of the Bible teaches you, I do not accept the 3 in one God. The God I worship is my Heavenly Father, the Father of my spirit, the one I knew before I began my mortal probation, who has provided a plan of salvation whereby I can return back into His presence. A correct interpretation of the scriptures will also teach you this if you would care to be taught the truth.
“Yes, but it is not scripture. The LDS Church may have other books considered scripture apart from the Bible. But the Christian Church does not. (One exception, the Catholic Church cannonised the apocrypha. This is not considered scripture by any other denomination, as far as I am aware) The Nicene Creed is a statement of beliefs that Churches agree upon, nothing else”
So, the conclusions reached by the council of Nicea was not revealed to them from God, and so they were man made!!!! Interestng so the doctrine of the Godhead is a man made doctrine.
That is an interesting conclusion, I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury would agree with you.
“That’s one point, you mentioned about the Holy Ghost and Holy spirit. When I say Holy Spirit I mean Holy Ghost. We do not use the wording Holy Ghost, you most likely do because it is the term used in the King James, which I may quote from, (for the sake of Mormon readers) but do not personally use.”.
The point I was making and again I think you have missed it again is the influence of the Holy Ghost can be felt by a whole group of people together as happened during Pentecost, but the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” is given following baptism and this gift blesses us with the continuous prescence whilever we are worthy. There is a tendancy to think that the Light of Christ which is given to all that come into the world is the Holy Spirit, there is a difference.
The time is far spent I will conclude this post tommorrow. Jeff Walsh
Hi Jeff
Ok my bad, I was being Lazy with the Isaiah and Jeremiah verses, and did not check the context of those verses. Here are a couple of better examples…
Deuteronomy 4:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
2 Kings 19:30-31
King James Version (KJV)
30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.
In Isaiah an oracle concerning Philista…
Isaiah 14:30
King James Version (KJV)
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
Like I said, it is throughout the whole Old Testament, Gods people rebel, God punishes them, but reserves Himself a remnant.
In response to your last post, you are still not giving me scriptural evidence for what you are saying. Logic and reason and well thought out arguments are all well and good but when I seek truth I seek it from the word of God. If you can show me a reason to believe what you are saying from the Bible, then I would give it full consideration. But so far I do not see the vast majority of what the LDS Church teaches in the Bible.
I must address this point…
‘So, the conclusions reached by the council of Nicea was not revelation to them from God, and so they were man made!!!! Interesting so the doctrine of the godhead is a man made doctrine.’
No, the council agreed upon and put a name to a doctrine which was already evident in scripture. They did not create the doctrine of the trinity, it was already there for all to see in the Bible. And yes, I’m sure the Archbishop of Canterbury would agree with me.
Hi this is the “bad” speaking. To answer you simply it is called latter-day revelation!!!!
Vicky cont.
“I believe this prophecy is referring to the 400 year gap, where there was no prophet speaking the word of God after Malachi until the New Testament times. This ended with the coming of John the Baptist. 400 years of silence, no prophet, no revelation. This sounds like a famine of the word of God doesn’t it?”
I fully agree with you, at last you admit there could be a time when because of apostasy the Lord did not have a prophet on the earth, therefore there was no scripture recorded. There are occasions where the Lord has revealed things that is to happen on more than one occasion, so this prophecy does not nulify the idea that the apostasy during the dark ages from 100 AD to 1820 did actually take place.
“I understand that you believe that this has already happened, but scriptuarly you have not and cannot prove this. You are taking it on Faith, Faith in what the apostles of the LDS Church have said, but not faith In what the Bible has said. I believe this refers to a time to come, before the end times. In the same sentence it says, ‘that there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed’, do you believe that this has already happened also? ”
I’ll come back at you and ask if you also are basing your belief on faith that your interpretation of scripture is correct, the pharisees also used to have their own interpretation of the scriptures and what did the Saviour say about that?,The only difference is that I have faith that latter day revelation has been given to the “LDS Church”. By the way why do you all insist of calling us LDS instead of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Yes I do believe what the LORD has revealed to Joseph Smith and the Prophets who have succeded him. Maybe you should read D&C 1 and find out for yourself the scriptual basis for my belief.
Yes there has been a falling away from the pure teachings of the Lord and the early apostles, and, to take a phrase from Bobby if you would take your head out of the sand you could know this is true. And yes Satah has been detected and his motives have been revealed, your reading, if you actually do it, of D&C 1, will tell you this.
“So are you agreeing with him here? You haven’t answered my point, by saying that there was an apostasy, the LDS Church is as good as saying that Jesus was unable to keep his church together, and here is Joseph Smith, the Founder of the church stating just that.”
Yes I am saying that, one of the greatest gifts that our Heavenly Father has given us is our free agency, and mankind using this free agency chose to forsake the pure teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles in the meridian of time and this is why the Church and revelation was taken from the earth. It was never a matter of Jesus Christ being unable to keep His Church together it happened because of the divine will of God allowing His children have this agency.
Our Heavenly Father allowed his Only Begotten Son to be persecuted and eventually be put to death for the same reasons, was this a failure?
“Again you have not addressed my point here…
Acts 10:44-45
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
How was this so, if what you are saying is the case???”
I have already addressed this in my explanation of the difference in the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, maybe you should start using the KJV of the Bible, I am tempted to go into a discussion about why we have so many versions or “translations” of the Bible, and which version really teaches the pure word of God, maybe it is the one that has not had man made interpretations added to it.!!
Just in closing I do agree with your observation that there are many aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that require us to excersise our faith. Many times the Saviour required persons to excersise this faith, and then said “Thy faith has made thee whole”.
But He called men at various times and revealed to them His will and these are the men who can give the correct interpretation of some of the more difficult passages of scripture. Hence we have the Lord saying, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing , but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7).
Throughout recorded time it has been illustrated that when man has neglected to heed the words of these prophets God has allowed the consequences to occur even the death of these prophets. But the time will come when the innocent blood of His servants will cry from the ground and terrible retrebution will be made.
Whether you believe it or not Joseph Smith was one of these men, called in his weekness and youth, and subject to all the trials of life as we all are, but used by the Lord to restore His Kingdom once more on the earth. And no matter how much mud and slander thrown at his memory, no matter how many times ungodly and corrupt men tell lies about him, no matter how many so called intelectuals and learned men cast their vile accusations on his character and accuse him of every vile and disgusting act known to man, he will be vindicated and at last will be known as one of the great servants of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
As I say it is up to you, you have your choice and Heavenly Father will allow you to excersise this choice, but remember we will be held accountable for the choices we make.
Come back at me if you want but I know what I have told you is the truth, but maybe you need to spend time on your knees and ask our Heavenly Father to reveal the truth to you, do what Joseph Smith did and rely on James 1:5-6. Jeff Walsh
I have
I think we should leave this conversation here, Although I’m happy to debate over the meaning of specific scriptures, or respond to points made, backed up by scripture.
I too know that what i have told you is true and know that I am a child of God
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children
(And that is by adoption)
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I’m sure we will talk again after my post on God having a body!
Vicky
Thanks I Agree Jeff
Hi Bea, thankyou for your encouragement : )