Made in the Image of God.

Posted on February 19, 2012 by

The other day I got talking to some Mormon Missionaries in a local town centre, we had a great chat and I challenged them on a number of areas but one thing they asked me about was my belief on what the bible means by us being made in the image of God. Mormons take this very literally and believe that we are physically the image of God because God the Father has a physical human body from His time being a man.

As a Bible believing evangelical I do not accept this and thought it would be worth exploring why and maybe have some discussion about it.

The bible verse the debate starts at is here:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

So before I get started just to sum up, Mormons say this is a physical image, and evangelicals (bible only believing types) say it means attributes not physical likeness.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 says “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s”

Joseph Smith in his own teaching said: “That which is without body or parts is nothing. There is no God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith p.42)

2nd Mormon President Brigham Young said:

“Our God and Father in Heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, he has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth his works to organized beings, as for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in his organized body. His Son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his Father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from himself, and may properly be called God’s minister to execute his will in immensity; being called to govern by his influence and power; but he is not a person of flesh as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.24)

This understandably leads to this thinking.

“Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so. He is no more every where present in person than the Father and Son are one in person” (Discourses of Brigham Young p.23-24)

I am not 100% sure if that last statement is still believed in Mormonism today however it makes sense in light of the earlier statements which are believed in the Mormon Church today.

So from a biblical perspective the first verse we understandably go to is:

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So this is Jesus speaking as a man with a body at this stage and He says God, (who when Jesus is speaking always means the Father) is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The Mormon Apologetics institution FAIR has some thoughts on this bible verse here

Among others they make this point: Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

And come to this conclusion: Adopting the critics’ reading of this verse leads to some strange conclusions if we are consistent.  Deuteronomy 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell. Can an unembodied spirit do that?  Exodus 9:3 says that God is a consuming fire, 1 John 1:5 says God is light, and 1 John 4:4,16 says that God is love. Is He just those things? Clearly not, and the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit.

I think they make a fair point in realising that all bible verses need to be viewed in light of other bible verses however their reasoning does not really make an argument as nothing in the context of the bible challenges the idea that God is Spirit, it just shows other attributes of His, however these other attributes do not contradict His being Spirit.

The concluding words : the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit. Is conveniant ignorance of the fact that the LDS view of God having a body is a direct contradiction to the bibles teaching, not merely an addition to it as the other bible verses they quote bring.

This still leaves the problem though, what does image mean?

Genesis 1:26 helps us out here:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, this image is according to the likeness of God.

In verse 28 it says  rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, Verse 31 says God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

So like God we rule over the earth, however unlike Him our rule is limited. This creation was declared to be very good, who did Jesus say is the only one that is good, the answer is God.

Like God this creation is good, again as finite beings this goodness is finite however it is still very much Gods attributes given to us.

Interestingly we see a lot of support for this view in Philippians 2:6-9

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.

If you pay close attention here you will see the problems this causes for Mormon theology is massive, here it is step by step.

  •  Jesus existed in the form of God,
  • He emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond servant,
  • Was then found in the appearance of a man, as a result of this changing of form.

Think about it, if Jesus was in the form of God then He was already like a man, however He had to empty Himself to be found in the appearance of man, surely this would be an exaltation to take the form of a man as ultimately He would be taking the form of God, however this was not the case as He was already in the form of God, which was Spirit.

So I hope you can see that the more literal interpretation of the bible is the one that looks at it more deeply than just looking at 1 verse. God the Father is an infinite being, who created an earth that cannot contain Him, (1 Kings 8:27) and is able to do far more than we can ask or imagine (Ephesians 3:20)

As ever please leave a comment with your thoughts.

 

 

 

Posted in Gods Attributes | Tagged , , , | 2 Comments

The effects of Google on the LDS Church

Posted on February 2, 2012 by

This is Elder marlin k. jensen who is on the Quorum of the 70 in the Mormon Church. He is of the top 85 men in leadership in this organization and is also the Churches head historian. He recently did a live interview with the audience being able to ask questions. At around the 29th minute he is asked about the effects of google and the information people are finding, and the effects that is having on the church. I would recommend you click on the link and listen to it for the full answer, but he does say this:

“Weve never had a period of apostasy like we are having right now, largely over these issues.”

Like never before people are leaving the LDS church due to the issues people are coming across on the internet, that they would never find on the official Church website.

In a Washington Post article It says that Mormon scholar, writer and observer Terryl Givens  said “I definitely get the sense that this is a real crisis,” . “It is an epidemic.” There is a “discrepancy between a church history that has been selectively rendered through the Church Educational System and Sunday school manuals, and a less-flattering version universally accessible on the Internet,” Givens said.

And I think for me and many others this is the issue, what the LDS Church teaches and has taught for many years about its history is entirely different at times, to what you will find if you go to lds.org. To Mormons reading this, and I dont mean apologists I mean regular Mormons who have come across this site I would ask do you know that when Joseph Smith “translated” the book of Mormon the plates were not there. He put his face into his hat with his seer stone in it and just dictated from that, no eyewitness reports claim that the plates were there for the translation process. Do you know Smith married teenage girls as young as 14 polygamously without Emmas knowledge, many if his wives were married to other men, there is no way you could know that unless you dare to look at what the church calls apostate material, yet often it is more truthful than what you are being told.

People are no longer just quietly submitting and they are looking for themselves, leading the LDS church to think we are going to have to do something about this. I think this will soon lead to a drip feed of new information about church history coming from the church in an attempt to stop its people from leaving.

Another news article says this:

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide — optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.

The LDS Church boasts 14 million members worldwide yet it seems that a mass amount of these well over half are inactive and not involved, And more than ever people are looking into the information for themselves and deciding this is not true.

In the UK I have heard estimates recently that of the 190.000 members we are looking at around 50.000 active, I dont know what the figures are of people leaving but more and more I am getting contacts of people who have looked into the history of the church and seen the evidence for themselves of Joseph Smiths obsession with women leading to him taking other mens wives as his own without his wife Emma, or their husband knowing its going on and the stories continue.

Elder Jensen also said in the interview above:

“My own daughter,” he then added, “has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are “severely outdated.”

People today are no longer happy to quietly follow the Prophet and this is likely to continue to cause massive problems for the LDS Church.

Maybe you are a UK (or anywhere) LDS member reading this thinking “Bobby your just another horrible Anti-Mormon spouting lies.” Well dont listen to me just look into it for yourself, below is a video of a family who recently did. I challenge you to watch it and not just think like your church wants you to think, which is to ignore all information a critic of the church presents as they are just full of hatred.

Posted in Mormon Apostasy | 11 Comments

Official Doctrine…..Whats that?

Posted on January 26, 2012 by

Above is a video recently put together by Keith Walker From Evidence Ministries highlighting an issue that anyone who has dialogue with Mormons and to be fair anyone who is a Mormon will have likely faced.

This is hardly anything of substance within Mormonism is official belief, or official doctrine, for example the idea that God was once a man which has tons of quotes from Joseph Smith and Mormon leaders that followed, yet today it is emphasised so little that many Mormons hardly know about it and can often say they dont think thats Mormon belief, a major cause of this problem comes from a very recent Mormon “Prophet” Gordon B Hinckley. In an interview with Time Magazine on the subject heres what he said.

Question: “Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?“

Hinckley: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.” – Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, Time Magazine, Aug 4, 1997

Hinckley was an expert at avoiding questions and painting the picture that Mormonism was not all that aware or connected to those past doctrine, as the Prophet of the church who had worked for the church all his life its hard to believe he would be unaware of these things.

So often today Missionaries and apologists when asked about the less comfortable teachings of Mormonism will often say I dont know about that, or its not official, despite the fact that in the earlier days of Mormonism these things were taught with pride. The idea that we can become gods and God was a man like us were all well taught things by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and beyond.

This also included some stranger doctrines like the idea that Adam from the garden of eden was actually God and that God was ultimately the one who commited that first sin, as well as this he taught that some sins were not covered by the blood of Christ and our own blood would have to be shed instead.

Today these are not at all believed but in a church that claims there is always one man on the earth who hears directly from God it suprising how much these guys have said that is not official and how little they say today. When has Thomas Monson said anything more than do a mission, pay into the welfare fund, serve the church! When has he said things that only someone with a direct link to God would say? And not just a rehash of what the church has been saying for years.

I think by far the most likely reason is the LDS church’s desperation to appear normal and Christian and they know becoming gods does not help this process. Hence recent media campains where they have said things like “Hi I am Dave, I do this job and that activity and….Im a Mormon”, many of the books and manuals that have the thincker teachings of Mormonism are no longer available through the LDS Church. The book Mormon Doctirne by Bruce Mckonkie mentioned in the video above stopped being sold by Deseret Books the official Mormon Bookstore in the last couple of years. That book has over the years caused many problems for the Mormon Church because of its clarity and honesty about Mormon Teachings, it has often been reffered to as just Mckonkies opinions, yet if you check the book you will find most or all things he says are referenced back to Mormon “Prophets”.

BYU (Brigham Young university) Professor Charles Harrel has recently brought out his book called This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology which from what I understand is a very honest look at the massive difference between the Mormon Doctrine of Joseph Smiths day and today, and inbetween, I havent read it yet but my copy is on order. There is a two part interview with him about the book on Mormon stories here http://mormonstories.org/?p=2414

So for Christians who have had the experience of Mormons saying they dont know or dont believe things you have read about, this is why, it does not neccesarily mean what you have read is wrong (though it still could be)

And Mormons please consider why the one true church on the face of the earth with the only person on the earth with a direct link to God still doesn’t clearly teach or know many things, such as will we have planets? Who is heavenly Mother? Was the Father once a sunful man on another planet (loads of views on that one) was Jesus born of a virgin? And the list goes on.

For those of you that are super keen below is a video from Aaron Shafovaloff of Mormonism Research Ministries giving some helpful analogies on the implications of this.

 

 

 

Posted in Mormon Doctrine | Tagged , , , , | 2 Comments

Feelings, Feelings, Feelings!

Posted on January 24, 2012 by

Above is a video recently put out by the Mormon Church,  with a number of good looking individuals with nice music in the background talking about how through their feelings inside them, the Holy Ghost regularly reassures them that everything is ok, and that the gospel, meaning the Mormon Church is true.

This idea finds its place in the Book of Mormon in a section refferred to as Moroni’s Promise.

Moroni 10:3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

Whenever you speak to Mormon Missionaries ultimately their goal is to get you to read some or all of the book of Mormon, but particularly this passage and get you to pray and ask God if its true, their hope is that some kind of warm feeling will come inside you at this point. They will seek to say things in a certain way, and almost create a warm atmosphere as they do this they will ask you how you feel about what they are saying.

In the 4 part interview I put up recently from Mormon Stories, the ex CES teacher said that teachers would ask him for his most emotionally dramatic stories, so that they could create this feeling of truth confirmation in their meetings. I went to a local fireside meeting which is an LDS kind of visitors meeting, and before the lady even spoke her husband handed her tissues for when she inevitably burst into tears through the talk about how true the church is. The LDS church is all about making you feel its good and not worry so much about the more troublesome things they believe. I heard a phrase “people join the Mormon Church because of what they feel, and leave because of what they know.”

Most if not all Mormon members basis for believing what they believe is found in this internal witness or a testimony, this feeling that tells them what they believe is true. I have spoke to Mormon Missionaries about issues such as racism and had them say I know Joseph Smith wasnt a racist because I have had it confirmed to me.

However this is a massive problem for 3 reasons.

1, You must pray with a sincere heart.

2, This leads to problems of consistency.

3, It goes against the bibles teaching on measuring truth and ignores biblical teaching on listening to the Spirit.

So the first point as I underlined in the Book of Mormon Passage is you have to pray with all sincerity, whats wrong with that? Well what happens if you pray and you feel your sincere and you dont get an answer, or you feel you get an answer saying its false. You tell this to the Mormon Missionary, of your parent, your bishop and what do they say…… Go back and pray with more sincerity. Simple as that and the cycle will go on until you leave or get the answer, so its not surprising that answer comes. A friend of mine in recent discussion with a Mormon Missionary had the missionary confide in him that he prayed around 150 times before he got the answer, its a circular trap.

Secondly this has led to massive problems of consistency, there are around 300 groups that have come into existence as a result of the Mormon Church, all claiming to be the correct Mormon Church. While in Utah I spoke to a member of the fundamentalist LDS Church and he was adamant that his internal witness was the correct one.

This idea of feelings is simply to create a basis of belief so that any issues that arise later will be easily ignored as this initial feeling is there to take away any bad feeling or discomfort they might create.

Bill Mckkeever at http://www.mrm.org/feelings says this:

Mormons often tell me how they “feel” that Mormonism is right; however, as a Christian I can respond with equal assurance that I “feel” my faith is right. But does that make it right? I recently read the story of a new convert who said, “Until the very second that I made my declaration, I wasn’t entirely convinced that it was what I wanted to do. Would I wake up one day and want to change my mind? Would I feel like I had made a huge mistake? But already I feel as if my life has been transformed. I don’t know how to describe it, but the moment I said those words, my heart filled with joy and love and it took about four days for me to come back down off the ceiling.” Though this sounds very familiar to statements I’ve heard from both Mormons and Christians, it was actually a comment made by a woman who had recently recited the Shahada, a Muslim testimony that simply states, “La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah.” Translated this phrase says, “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” (“Why I took the hijab,” The Guardian, June 20, 2002). What does this prove? Well, when it comes to establishing what is true, it proves absolutely nothing. It is just one opinion among millions.

Which leads onto my 3rd point that the bible gives us a different basis to measure truth. I said to a Mormon Missionary once what if I told you superman was God how would you know I am wrong? Mostly they have said they would search the scriptures however some have said they would pray about it.

In Acts 17:11 we see Paul bringing something new in terms of teaching to the bereans, the bible describes them as noble. Their response was that they searched the scriptures. This is the measure for truth, Christians if your sat with Mormon Missionarys and they ask you to pray about what they are saying tell them lets look at the bible first.

But am I saying that all interaction with the Spirit is wrong? That would be a sad thing to do, to ignore a third member of the Godhead or simply say He is unrealiable, this is not the case, however you need to be aware of the reality of your human condition when you do this.

In the bible in Jeremiah 17:9 it says The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Our hearts and emotions can deceieve us in all sorts of ways, this is why we have scripture as that basis to measure truth, and that is a noble way to look at it. All personal feelings or “revelations” must be judged against that which you know for sure God has said.

Hebrews 5:12-14  says For though [a]by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the [b]elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.  

It takes practice to discern what is good and evil, this and it does not come from getting a warm feeling in your tummy when two Mormon Missionaries tell you its true.  This practice involves reading the word of God, the bible and allowing God to speak to you through that and whatever other means He will. Why not ask God to reveal to you what is true, rather than just pin it down to a yes or no answer about one thing, that for some takes over a hundred prayers just to get a feeling.

For Christians this is a message to you pleading that when you get a knock on the door from Mormons share the truth of the gospel with them.

And to Mormons I would never expect anyone to walk away because of what I have said, however look under the surface, there is so much of Mormon History and belief that you will never hear if all you do is blindly follow the prophet. Look at some of the sites linked to on the right or leave a comment to start this journey.

http://seg.sharethis.com/getSegment.php?purl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%2Fwp-admin%2Fpost.php%3Fpost%3D549%26action%3Dedit&jsref=&rnd=1327418729070

Posted in Mormon Testimony | Tagged , , , , , | 11 Comments

From LDS Church education teacher to disbelief.

Posted on January 22, 2012 by

Hi All below is 4 parts to an interview between John Dehlin of Mormon Stories and a couple who have recently left the Mormon Church. Whats unique is that this couple worked full time for the LDS Church teaching religion. Although they have not come to follow Christ as yet there are some fantastic points made here and some very honest discussion about life in the LDS church, the very high standards and how the Church often does not behave in a Christ like way towards its members.

Its very long over 4 hours in total however well worth the time, if you want to understand the inside workings of Mormonism better or if you are LDS and doubting and want to see your not alone this is worth the time, please leave any thoughts in the comments box if you would like to discuss it more.

Posted in Testimony | Tagged , , , , , , , | 2 Comments

A new year, looking to where to go from here!

Posted on January 16, 2012 by

A bit late maybe but happy new year to everyone coming across this blog. I have been slow on the posts lately and just wanted to share where this blog comes from and ask for your help on where it is going.

For 11 years now since very early in my Christian life I have been totally aware of Gods call on my life to reach out to people in groups that have their origins in Christianity but have gone elsewhere with their teachings and practices. The Mormon Church has around 14 million members and the Jehovahs Witness Church around 5 million so they are easily the main focuses for me. This has led to countless discussions with members of these groups and visits to Utah the “Mecca of Mormonism”, in my last Utah visit we had discussion with Russ East of Utah Partnerships for Christ and founded UK Partnerships for Christ, the ministry which this and my Jehovahs Witness blog works under and its fantastic having covering and support from people so experienced in this ministry.

Since starting this mormon blog in september 2010 there has been over 14.000 visits to this blog (not me i promise) and some great discussions but I have always had this nagging feeling that a lot of my posts contain information obtainable elsewhere and that i can only get so much done on my own.

My big desire now is to travel UK wide speaking at Christian Churches on how to respond to knocks on the door from Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses biblically, and to start using these blogs as a way to inform people and respond too developments in Mormon and Jehovahs witness current events, and stories of people coming to a saving faith in Christ from these groups. Also I will start partnering with some other Christian people and ministries who have agreed to let me use some of their videos and posts on here. My friend Vince Mccann of spotlight ministries has done some great work which will start to be shared on here.

I would ask if there is anyone in the UK who has become a Christian out of the Mormon or Jehovahs witness church please type your story up and send it to me, it would be great for people to be encouraged by all that God has done in your life, also is there anyone in the UK who would like to help with putting posts and research together to go on here please get in touch, there is a mass of work to be done here in the UK and very few interested in doing it.

If you think your church would benefit from a seminar on this subject please pass my sites on to your church leader and have them contact me, I genuinely believe the way to reach members of these groups in the UK is for regular Christians to be willing and able to confidently respond to Mormons and Jehovahs witnesses at their door even if it is not their main ministry,  however if there is anyone interested in getting involved or prayer supporting me please get in touch. At this stage I am not in anyway seeking financial support.

So just a quick update saying we are still here and there is more to come, however please if you are interested get in touch with me about how you could be more involved. Please pray for this ministry and that the UK Church as a whole can be equipped to share their faith in a loving, informed way.

Posted in UK Partnerships for Christ | Tagged , , , | 2 Comments

The Book of Mormon prophesied in the Bible – right? by Thaddeus Irvine.

Posted on December 20, 2011 by

One day, two well-dressed and pleasantly spoken members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) come to your door and offer you the chance to study the Bible with them.  This used to consist of 6 ‘Discussions’, although the format is now less formal and is based on the manual, ‘Preach My Gospel,’ to which only they will have access. This manual has 13 Chapters. Chapter 5 (p.103) is entitled ‘What is the Role of the Book of Mormon.’  On page 106 of this manual, we find the section, ‘The Book of Mormon and the Bible Support Each Other.’ The passage explains how the Bible needs to be supported by the BoM. This Book of Mormon (BoM) is very important to the Mormon (LDS) church as they realise that, without it, they could not exist. In the Introduction to the BoM, it states that this book is “the keystone of our religion.” The founder of the Mormons, Joseph Smith stated, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” (History of the Church,2:52).  They profess to be Christians and, among some of their claims, will be their belief that the Book of Mormon is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”.

  When challenged about this, they will offer several ‘proofs’ from the Bible, which they claim authenticates this point of view. One of these ‘proofs’ is that the Old Testament scriptures themselves prophesy of the Book of Mormon. They make use of two Scriptures: Ezekiel 3715-20 & Isaiah 291-4. If this is true, then this evidence goes some way to establishing the truth of the Book of Mormon; and shedding a whole new light on the authority and inspiration of the Holy Bible.

  Let’s look at the first of these scriptures taken from the Authorised Version, also used by the Mormon Church – Ezekiel 3715-20.

V 15 “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, V 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: v 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. V 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? V 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put then with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. V 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.”

  The late Mormon ‘apostle’ LeGrand Richards, in his work A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, said this, “Note that the Lord said he would do this and make them one in his hand. Now, granting that the Bible is the stick of Judah, where is the stick of Joseph? Can anyone answer?” (p 65); he goes on to say that, “Until someone can explain where the stick of Joseph is, the Book of Mormon stands unrefuted in its claims to be the ‘stick of Joseph”’ (p 67). My intention is to take up LeGrand Richards’ challenge and explain these ‘sticks,’ scripturally.

  In another Mormon publication, ‘Read the Book of Mormon. It Can Change Your Life’, it states, “Significantly, the joining of these two books of Scripture as a dual witness for Jesus Christ was foreseen more than twenty-five centuries ago by Ezekiel” (p 5); Another late Mormon ‘apostle’, Dr James E Talmage, in his Articles of Faith, stated, “Ezekiel saw in vision the coming together of the stick of Judah, and the stick of Joseph, signifying the Bible and the Book of Mormon…The Nephites were then of the tribes of Joseph, and their record or ‘stick’ is as truly represented by the Book of Mormon as is the stick of Judah by the Bible”  (pp 249-250).

You can find the canonized, misinterpretation of Ezekiel 37 in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 27, verse 5:

“Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the recordof the stick of Ephraim”

This LDS scripture is cross-referenced to Ezekiel 37:16. If the cursor is placed over the word for ‘stick’ at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/27/5e and double-clicked, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16a offers the following information: “16a HEB wood. Wooden writing tablets were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel’s day.” It also references Num. 17: 1-10 (cf. verse 2) for apparent support.

 

What the Mormon Church teaches regarding these ‘sticks’ is that:

∞         The sticks spoken of are really scrolls, books or records

∞         The stick ofJudahrefers to the Bible

∞         The stick of Joseph refers to the Book of Mormon

∞          The joining of the sticks refers to the joining together of the Biblical and Mormon scriptures (the Bible depending upon, and needing, the Book of Mormon for support)

∞         The Book of Mormon is a ‘further history’ of Jesus’ other sheep who migrated toAmerica

∞         The Bible tells only part of the story, thus remaining defective, inaccurate, fairly unreliable and incomplete.

Which raises another interesting point, namely, if the Authorized Version of the Bible is so inaccurate and corrupt (according to the Mormon Church, we should, “believe the word of God as far as it is translated correctly” – Article of Faith 1:8),  then why don’t they substitute it for Joseph Smith’s “Holy Scriptures – Inspired Version” (the complete Joseph Smith ‘translation’, or JST, as it is also known)? This version was completed, since God had expected and commanded it in D & C 94:10; 104:58 & 124:89. God had told him not only to translate it, but to complete it in D & C 73:4. Joseph Smith admits that he had done this in July 2, 1833, according to the ‘Documentary History of the Church. 1:368. ‘This was later verified in LDS historian Andrew Jensen’s ‘Church Chronology,’ as well as the preface of the Inspired Version. The LDS has a duty to get this right because of its functions and responsibilities mentioned in D & C 107:91, 92.

This appears to be a fairly conclusive argument for the Book of Mormon but, upon closer examination, we discover flaws in their reasoning.

  For example; the word ‘stick’ appears seven times in verses 15-19, and as ‘sticks’ in verse 20.  It is a masculine noun, and its translated by the word #[e ((`ets). It can be located in Strong’s Concordance (6086), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1670a) and Vines Complete Expository Dictionary (p 267 under the word “tree”, not scroll, book or record!) There are various meanings of this word, such as; tree (Ezek. 3630); timber/lumber (Ezek. 2612); stalk (Josh 26); gallows (Gen. 4019) and planks (Ezek. 4125). As can be seen, there is no room for anything other than the idea of wood or wooden (wood-like), with the one exception of Joshua. One has only to use the Mormon interpretation of ‘book’ in the context of 1 Kings 1712 and 2 Kings 61-7 to see how ridiculous their interpretation is. The word ‘’ets’ translated ‘stick(s)’ – also translating tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax in 1 Kings and 2 Kings - is exactly the same word used in this passage of Ezekiel. Are we to take it that, in 1 Kings, the widow at Zarephath isn’t really gathering sticks but books or scrolls? And likewise, in 2 Kings, where we find Elisha cutting down wood – or is that a book, or even a scroll? Some Mormons have attempted to say that, since ‘stick’ (‘rod’ in KJV) can symbolize a ‘tribe’ (Num. 171-3), why can’t it do likewise for a scroll or record? The Hebrew word used here is hJ,m; (matteh), which means a ‘rod, staff, branch, shaft, stave or tribe’. As Vine’s puts it, “It is possible the ‘matteh’ (“staff”), is a symbol of authority, first applied to the tribal leader and thereafter by extension to the whole “tribe”” (p269). It is a completely different word, and to attempt to adopt this approach is really clutching at non-existent straws!

Is it possible that a stick suggests, or is a symbol for, a scroll or book? 

1.    In the Bible, a stick (#[e))) is never used to symbolize a book, scroll or record. It is used to translate: reed, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows a tree or trees, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax, 

2.    Surely Ezekiel knew the difference between gallows, cedar-woods, firewood, etc and a book?

3.    The word rp,se (say'-fer) means a ‘writing, book, written message, scroll, legal document, bill, official letter, register’ – not a stick or a tree. It is a different word altogether (see Strong’s – 5612; Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament – 1540a). In A Marvellous Work and A Wonder (the Mormon author of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Mormon Church), LeGrand Richards tries to tie ‘stick’ and ‘scroll’ or ‘book’ together when he explains, “In ancient times it was the custom to write on parchment and roll it on a stick” (p66).  In this case, ‘say'-fer’ would have been used – if Ezekiel had wanted to specifically refer to a scroll - not  ‘‘ets’; see Ezekiel 29 where “a roll of a book” is mentioned – ‘book’ being translated by ‘say'-fer’, and the word “roll” translated by hL'gIm. (megillah) which occurs with ‘say'-fer’ meaning a ‘scroll of a book’, which translates LeGrand Richards’ “parchment and roll on a stick” perfectly.

  These verses, in a figurative context, refer to Israel - the Northern Kingdom (Israel, sometimes Ephraim), and Judah – the Southern Kingdom (Judah and Benjamin) as two “sticks” (i.e., nations), which had been split from the initial Kingdom of Israel in 931 BC, and that will be joined together by God upon the death of King Solomon,. Both had, since this split, fallen prey to either periods of captivity or exile (see Ezekiel 34 through 48). God was speaking in a prophecy, through Ezekiel, in which He was reassuring the split nations that they would, in due course, be brought together as one nation ( not two books), under one king.

 There are several points to note here in relation to Mormonism, which takes this passage totally out of context for its own ends:

  • The people specifically ask for the verses to be interpreted (v 18), which they are (v 19-22); similar methods of interpretation are used in The Parable of the Sower (Mark 4, esp. v 10) and Jesus and the Tares (Matthew 13, esp. v 36); if God’s Word was good enough to supply an accurate interpretation for these parables, why not this prophecy? Or maybe, God only gets it right with parables; and prophecies cause difficulties for the limited, created God of the Mormon Church?
  • If these sticks really refer to the Book of Mormon, then why does it call itself “the stick of Joseph” rather than the Book of Mormon? Why should one book be the Bible? What hasJudah got to do with the Bible?Judah may be the tribe from which the Lord is descended, butJudah had no hand in writing Scripture; and again why the Bible, why not the Old Testament?
  • Even if we were to accept the Mormon church in their interpretation of Ezekiel’s sticks as ‘books’, and even if we were to doubly accept that one stick was the Bible (which on its own is a big assumption since nowhere is this suggested), why should the other stick be the book of Mormon? It could be any other book we care to think of—one of the Apocryphal books for example, or something from Shakespeare or Dickens; the book of Mormon is no morelikely than these.
    • When the ‘so-called’ original inscriptions were discovered by Joseph Smith (the founder of the Mormon Church), they weren’t on scrolls, books, parchments – or even sticks! They were ‘discovered’ on golden plates! Doesn’t this nullify the Mormon interpretation of this prophecy?
    • It was Ezekiel alone who wrote on both sticks which, according to Mormon logic, must mean that he was responsible for the writing of both books – otherwise, Mormon interpretation and this text contradict each other! Surely, for Mormonism to be correct, this passage should have stated that Ezekiel must write on the ‘stick ofJudah’ (the Bible) and Nephi, son of Lehi (there are 3 other Nephi’s) must write on the ‘stick of Manasseh’ (the Book of Mormon). This was not the case, making this Mormon proof text redundant with regard to Mormon prophecy.
    • According to the Book of Mormon (representing Joseph), it was supposed to have been written by the Nephites, who were apparently descendants of Joseph, through Joseph’s other son – Manasseh. The book of Mormon specifically states, in Alma103: “And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.”    [bold and underline added for emphasis].                                                      

 It is a history of the descendants of Manasseh, not Ephraim. Is Lehi (according to the Book of Mormon, this particular character was a Hebrew prophet who led his followers to the Promised Land in the western hemisphere” around 600 B.C.; there are 3 other ‘Lehi’s’) the son of Ephraim or Manasseh? In order to have this prophecy fulfilled, the Nephites would have had to come down through the line of Joseph’s son, Ephraim, not Manasseh. According to The Bible (Ezekiel 3716, 19), Ephraim should have been the ancestor of Lehi (if he had ever really existed); according to the Book of Mormon (Alma 102-3) Manasseh was Lehi’s actual ancestor. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon itself  prove that Ezekiel 37 couldn’t possibly refer to the Book of Mormon!?

  • God makes it clear that both sticks would be right there in Ezekiel’s hands, at that very moment in time. Since the LDS ‘stick of Joseph’ wasn’t completed until after Jesus’ death, how could it possibly refer to the Book of Mormon, which was completed almost 2,000 years later? Who got it right, God or Joseph Smith?
  • For the Mormon Church to be correct these verses would have to refer to Judahalone; but these verses speak of all the tribes ofIsrael (see Genesis through Kings).Judah is given no special treatment or extra attention, which is strange if it refers to the very Word of God – the Bible itself. That’s because it speaks of a nation and not the Bible.
  • Ezekiel is relaying to the people the prophecy that God had given to him. He even quotes God directly by using the expression, “Thus saith the Lord”, adding authority and authenticity to the prophecy. Why should v 22 be any different, or involve a separate issue, from the previous seven verses as the Mormon Church would have one believe? Where’s the grammatical or contextual evidence to support this view?
  • If all of the above were not sufficient proof that the book of Mormon was not foretold in the Old Testament, then let us turn to the Mormon author Everett Landon, who wrote The Book of Mormon Foundation.  Mr Landon, at one time, fully accepted the idea that the ‘Ezekiel sticks’ prophesied of the connection between the bible and the book of Mormon.  Upon further investigation and research, he concluded:

“Those readers of this treatise who are aware of the belief that the two sticks discussed in Ezekiel 37 point to the Bible and Book of Mormon both find in our comments a departure from that viewpoint… Having once believed the sticks did symbolize the said Scriptures, we differ in a spirit of considerable charity toward those who still so believe…. The words Ezekiel was to write were dictated to him by the Lord. We emphasize, he was to write upon two sticks, (or staves as stated in the Septuagint Bible). Not upon scrolls, plates, rolls, papyri, or in books or records. The traditional view of the sticks as books or records has been a stumbling block to many. Ezekiel understood fully what a ‘roll of a book’ was, (Ezek. 2 9) and did not need to mince words in saying ‘stick’ if he actually meant ‘book’, or ‘record’…. Let Book of Mormon believers be not dismayed. In the Bible and the Holy Spirit we have ample proof of the Book of Mormon.” [The Book of Mormon Foundation, January, February, March 1971, pp. 7-8]

Here we see this Mormon author make it clear that Mormons shouldn’t refer to scroll as sticks, as they have been doing, in an effort to convince us that the Book of Mormon is scriptural, as this [Mormon] approach has become a “stumbling block” to the Mormon Church itself, and its missionaries, who teach this false interpretation! He makes it clear that, just because the LDS church can’t really prove this point, we can still fall back on the “Bible” (regarded by the LDS church as defective anyway) and the “Holy Spirit” (referring to a different spirit, and not the one found in the biblical Scriptures).

Commenting on Isaiah 291-4 and the Book of Mormon.

V 1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! Add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. V 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. V 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. V 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Again, LeGrand Richards says of verse 4 in A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, p68, “Truly it has a familiar spirit, for it contains the words of the prophets of the God of Israel.”     

He is content to use this passage to support the OT prophecy of the Book of Mormon. It is interesting, and very significant, that Richards appears to find comfort in the fact that these spirits are ‘familiar’.  In A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, LeGrand refers to 2 Nephi 2615-17, asking us to compare it with this passage – one supporting the other, presumably (p68). We find the Book of Mormon prophet Moroni, in Moroni 1027, applying this prophecy in support of the Mormon notion that it speaks of a record of an ancient people speaking “out of the dust”, demonstrating that the Book of Mormon has its own ‘familiar spirit’. The term ‘familiar’ refers to a relational aspect of association, relating to servitude. The KJV translates the Hebrew word bwOa (‘owb) as “familiar spirits”. The NIV and NAS translate this as “mediums”. This expression carries the idea of ‘medium, ghost, troubled spirit (of the dead), spirit of divination, conjuring ghost, one who calls up spirits from the abyss to foretell future events, wizard, necromancer, one who evokes the dead, spirit of a dead one, sorcerer, occultist and witch’ (see Strong’s Concordance – 178; Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament – 37a; Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary pp. 241-242; The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon – p15a; The Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance of the Old Testament – p29; Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies – p. 157; Bible Works 7; Expository Dictionary of Bible Words by Stephen D Renn (former Head of Biblical Studies and Academic Dean at the Sydney Missionary and Bible College, lecturing in Old Testament and Biblical Hebrew) – Hendrickson Pub.). I recommend Angels: Elect & Evil, Revised
by C. Fred Dickason (Moody Publishers) for a full picture of demons in the Bible.

   The Old Testament uses this word 16 times (Lev. 1931; 206, 27;  Deut. 189-14;  1 Sam 283, 7, 8, 9;   2 Kings 216;  2324;   1 Chron. 1013, 14; 2 Chron. 336; Job 3219; Isa. 819 193; 294.  In every case, this word refers to something unholy, occultic, evil, satanic or an abomination.   God forbade Israel to seek information by this means, which was common practice among the pagans (Lev. 1931; Deut. 1811). According to Deut. 13, “Necromancy was so contrary to God’s commands that its practitioners were under the death penalty” (Vine’s p. 242). Wasn’t this the sin that completed Saul’s wickedness, for which he was finally rejected of God, 1 Chr. 1013? The Bible tell us, with regard to familiar spirits, that they are demons, whose only function is to propagate the will and message of their master, Satan. They use people to spread lies and deceit, in order to frustrate and thwart the Kingdom of God. The Bible tells us that to knowingly and wilfully open oneself to the work of demons is an evil thing, (Deuteronomy 1810-12a). Is this what LeGrand Richards suggests we should do? Is he advocating that we should embrace pagan necromancy against the Will of God?

A familiar spirit, then, is a demon who identifies itself with another person. We also see similar demon-human relationships in the New Testament: Matthew 932, 1243-45, 1522, 1715-18; Mark 51-20, 917-26; Acts 1616-18, 1915-16; 1 Timothy 41.

     Isaiah is speaking to laeyrIa] Ari’el (“lion or lioness of God”) a symbolic name for Jerusalem (see Strong’s – 740; The Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance of the OT – p155; Encyclopædia of the Bible; Edited by Prof. Walter A. Elwell, Vol. 1, pp. 168-169; Pub. Baker; Westminster Dictionary of the Bible by the late Prof. John D Davis, PhD, DD, LLD, – revised by Henry Snyder Gehman PhD, STD, Prof. of Semitic languages – p40, Pub. Collins); it never refers to, or speaks of, a distant people or their buried records!

     It refers to actual, historical events, which took place. How could it then apply to events which might occur, except in the minds of Mormon interpreters?!

  In the case of Isaiah 294, it is made very clear that this word speaks of the ‘troubled spirits of the dead’.  Note what God has to say about those who have a “familiar spirit” in Lev. 1931; 206, 27; Deut. 189-12. This makes it very clear that the Mormon Church believes that the Book of Mormon has a “familiar spirit”.

Despite the fact that this text is actually speaking about Israel, it seems that the Mormon Church, in its rush to re-interpret the Bible yet again, has aligned both itself and the Book of Mormon with Witchcraft and, ultimately, Satan.

 

 

 

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