This is Elder marlin k. jensen who is on the Quorum of the 70 in the Mormon Church. He is of the top 85 men in leadership in this organization and is also the Churches head historian. He recently did a live interview with the audience being able to ask questions. At around the 29th minute he is asked about the effects of google and the information people are finding, and the effects that is having on the church. I would recommend you click on the link and listen to it for the full answer, but he does say this:
“Weve never had a period of apostasy like we are having right now, largely over these issues.”
Like never before people are leaving the LDS church due to the issues people are coming across on the internet, that they would never find on the official Church website.
In a Washington Post article It says that Mormon scholar, writer and observer Terry L Givens said “I definitely get the sense that this is a real crisis,” . “It is an epidemic.” There is a “discrepancy between a church history that has been selectively rendered through the Church Educational System and Sunday school manuals, and a less-flattering version universally accessible on the Internet,” Givens said.
And I think for me and many others this is the issue, what the LDS Church teaches and has taught for many years about its history is entirely different at times, to what you will find if you go to lds.org. To Mormons reading this, and I dont mean apologists I mean regular Mormons who have come across this site I would ask do you know that when Joseph Smith “translated” the book of Mormon the plates were not there. He put his face into his hat with his seer stone in it and just dictated from that, no eyewitness reports claim that the plates were there for the translation process. Do you know Smith married teenage girls as young as 14 polygamously without Emmas knowledge, many if his wives were married to other men, there is no way you could know that unless you dare to look at what the church calls apostate material, yet often it is more truthful than what you are being told.
People are no longer just quietly submitting and they are looking for themselves, leading the LDS church to think we are going to have to do something about this. I think this will soon lead to a drip feed of new information about church history coming from the church in an attempt to stop its people from leaving.
Another news article says this:
The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide — optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.
Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.
The LDS Church boasts 14 million members worldwide yet it seems that a mass amount of these well over half are inactive and not involved, And more than ever people are looking into the information for themselves and deciding this is not true.
In the UK I have heard estimates recently that of the 190.000 members we are looking at around 50.000 active, I dont know what the figures are of people leaving but more and more I am getting contacts of people who have looked into the history of the church and seen the evidence for themselves of Joseph Smiths obsession with women leading to him taking other mens wives as his own without his wife Emma, or their husband knowing its going on and the stories continue.
Elder Jensen also said in the interview above:
“My own daughter,” he then added, “has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are “severely outdated.”
People today are no longer happy to quietly follow the Prophet and this is likely to continue to cause massive problems for the LDS Church.
Maybe you are a UK (or anywhere) LDS member reading this thinking “Bobby your just another horrible Anti-Mormon spouting lies.” Well dont listen to me just look into it for yourself, below is a video of a family who recently did. I challenge you to watch it and not just think like your church wants you to think, which is to ignore all information a critic of the church presents as they are just full of hatred.
“Bobby your just another horrible Anti-Mormon spouting lies.” You have taken single lines of a 57 minute interview and twisted them to your own personal view. Furthermore you claim Joseph Smith married girls as young as 14 years old and some who were already married behind the backs of their husbands and without Emma’s consent but you have provided no proof of this nor has any anti-mormon. These are malicious rumours and cannot be backed up. First off the idea of marrying other men’s wives cannot be true as the church only ever allowed a man to marry many women and it was forbidden for a woman to marry more than one husband at a time. These rumours were made up long ago by anti-mormons at the time trying to discredit Joseph and they did not stick then and for anyone to believes them now is just foolish. Certainly I think people who believe this stuff from anti-mormon sources and let it affect their testimony were never truly converted in the first place.
Ben I dont know whether that comment was a joke but you have captured everything that the LDS church uses to keep people in their place, I hope others reading this can see that. And Ben when your ready to actually find out the truth, do some research many are and thats why so many are leaving…
Ben, I can understand the knee jerk reaction that Joseph Smith married other men’s wives would be untrue. However Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball all practised polyandry and that Young and Kimball fathered children of polyandrous wives. Thus they all contravened doctrine. As Jim Whitefield (UK Mormon for 43 years) explains in his book the Mormon Delusion “You can’t hide the babies”. His work has been reviewed by an Apostle in the Mormon Church and he also had discussions with a friend of his in the First Quorum of Seventy, that was in 2008 when they both promised to respond when he sent them the information they requested, I understand from him that he is still waiting.
but Jim Whitefield married a 16 year old, old enough, but not common practice for an LDS member. He is a real hipocrite. The church doesnt acknowledge him because he is a fool.
Hi there Jo thanks for commenting, I dont know about Jims background and so am not too worried about trying to defend him if indeed he needs it.
However the issue you raise is common with most or all LDS, you guys refuse to face the issues presented and instead just attack the person presenting them. There is evidence that Joseph Smith had full relationships with women married to other men without the knowledge of those men or his own wife. I imagine the idea of this being true is terrfying to you and many like you, so therefore just pick on us. I challenge you to forget about me, forget about Jim Whitefield and just look into these issues yourself, thats what many are doing today and hence why many are leaving, Elder Jensen even acknowledges this in his interview.
Jo, Jim had left the church before he had married his young wife…It might not be common practice for an LDS member but he had left by then.
Ben West, Listen a little closer to Elder Jenson’s interview. He encouraged LDS members to be a little more ‘Christian’ and accommodating to members who are dissaffected, struggling or questioning aspects of church history/doctrine. Your thought regarding members who let aspects of church history ‘affect their testimony’ and that they ‘were never truly converted in the first place’ hardly helps foster the open discussion Elder Jenson seems to be trying to promote.
It was stumbling upon Joseph’s list of wives on lds site familysearch.org that was one of the factors that was catalyst in my wife and I leaving the lds church. It bothered me that we never heard about any of joseph’s wives other than Emma, particularly as I remember in an institute lesson such a romantasised picture of Joseph and Emma’s devotion to one another was painted, why no passing mention of his other wives? The fact that some of Josephs’s wives were already married to other living husbands is not lies but the truth.
I have no need to be bitter against the lds church, I love much of its culture and many of its people but I can testify that since I stopped attending the lds church I am constantly coming to know God better and the process of sanctification has become so much more real. Also being with Christians that radiate unconditional love and truly yearn holiness of heart and life, for Christian revival and pray in the Holy Spirit has been more powerful than I ever experienced in 27 years in the lds church. Now I know what having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof’ really means.(2Tim 3:5) The real everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ is more powerful than I ever knew as a latter-day saint. I’ll pray for you Ben.
Hi Ben, do yourself a favour, and us. Go to UTLM.org and look up the evidence they have there from Mormon writers, and prove each one of these marriages false. See te evidence from yourself and prove it wrong. For if Bobby is wrong you should have no problems in doing so.
@ Ben West, it would behoove you to do your homework before you say that a person has lied.
Here is your homework: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org
Well if I hadn’t had doubts about the LDS church before I certainly do after listening to elder Jesen.
“Each area will have it’s own history and it’s history will be what each area presidency says it will be”
???????
Surely history is what it is, defined by empirical facts, or is the Church now openly advocating Revisionist history?
The Church is developing its own ‘Safe browser and search engine’ for use by members? At the time of SOPA and ACTA this is yet another form of officially sanctioned censorship; plain and simple.
The use of “Focus Groups”? Does this not prove the Church is a business? It’s being treated marketed and run as one, surely if the church has a divine prophet who can speak directly to an omniscient God, why do they need Focus groups?
For centuries now the church has been able to present itself as the only accurate source of information upon itself. It has taken time but finally the elders have begun to notice that there word is not longer law, nor indeed Gospel and that even their own members now want to confirm the truth of those, precepts taught by those they trust, instead they are discovering half truths, distortions, omission and down right lies.
No wonder people are leaving, to commit to anything you must be able to:
A) Trust the object of you devotion
B) Be certain of it’s truth
C) Be tenacious, determined that nothing will take you from this truth and trust.
When you find you have been lied to, truth collapses, trust dissolves and determination falters. No amount of wishy washy, aversion. sermonising and doctrinal platitudes will make up for that.
Especially not when central to your religion is the promise that God and his followers are truthful by nature, trustworthy, honest and will never betray you.
The church is in a hopeless state and it’s active membership dwindling to those whose livelihood depends on the church, those who are either by deliberate effort or by nature are ignorant of the reality of the church, those whose lifestyle revolves around the church and are too frightened to abandon it and worst of all those who are dangerous fanatics and will see nothing beyond there obsessive devotion to the hierarchy of the elders and the organisation.
It is interesting to note that of the membership claimed by the Church only 25% are actually active, due I am sure in no small part to the difficulty in having your name removed from the baptismal rolls of the church. I know many who have tried, some who have succeeded (after threatening legal action) but also a fair number of those who gave up trying because it was just to much of a **** on to exercise their right to officially leave after being given the run around by church authorities. So on paper they are still able to be boasted of as official members.
Fascinating audio track – I could not believe what I was hearing – Elder Jensen says LDS are suffering a loss due to Google!
He says the answer is a browser to block information or alternatively search engine optimisation! This sounds more like an oppressive regime or a Corporation rather than a Church.
Elder, I think this is grossly disrespectful to the many people who have left, often with significant personal angst and having been active members contributing money and time for decades. They leave because they have discovered the truth. Implying they are not discerning enough to realise when they have been deceived by Mormonism is astonishingly arrogant.
Ben, in case you didn’t open Russ’s link – http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167 (the official church website) lists all of Joseph’s wives. All this is a shock and does seem like lies but don’t believe anyone, check for yourself. Only the Truth can really set us free.
Best wishes to you
Sue
what difference does it make if it is actually true or not…….The church teaches you to be honest and virtuous, dependable etc etc and to make a covenant with God and if we have more charity because we believe Joseph was a prophet then God will be pleased with the outcome. Read ‘Heaven and Hell’ by Emmanuel Swedenborg who boils it all down to being more selfless = Heaven and more selfish = hell. LDS teaches us to be selfless and if we are and resist evil and do good and believe in Jesus Christ we will be in a good place whether mormon or any other religion
Hey Paul I think Mormons would disagree with you on that one, they see it as completely and utterly 100% true and those other things come as a result of that.
I would agree with you in that if it didnt matter whether Mormonism was true or not it would be a good and moral organization to be a part of. (Apart from its deceptiveness about its past and stranger beliefs).
However it does matter whether its true or not, to most if not all Mormons and myself, hence this blog carries on.
“what difference does it make if it is actually true or not…….”
This of course has been the argument for ‘The End Justifies the Means’ used by every dictator, cultist and warmonger for the last thousand years.
However, when this is used by a so-called Christian organisation the immediate problem is the Ninth Commandment, “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy Neighbour”
How can something that comes about as a direct result of breaking one of the primary tenants of Christianity be holy or good?
“The church teaches you to be honest and virtuous, dependable etc etc and to make a covenant with God and if we have more charity because we believe Joseph was a prophet then God will be pleased with the outcome.”
Again you say the end justifies the means and that God will be pleased with this.
How can you know this, do you presume to know the will of God? Especially after you have broken his commandments to achieve this?
Mormons not only believe Joseph to have been a prophet they testify of it and if this is not true and they knowingly testify to their brethren that it is true, they compound sin with sin.
As to Charity, Mormonism is a great advocate of “Charity begins at home” members are compelled give their time and money to the church before all else, not to the world in general. This maybe charity after a fashion but it is in expectations of privilege and reward on both an earthly and spiritual level. (No Tithe no Temple recommend, no Temple recommend no Sealing, no sealing no ultimate Godhead of your own.)
“Read ‘Heaven and Hell’ by Emmanuel Swedenborg who boils it all down to being more selfless = Heaven and more selfish = hell.”
I assume you mean Emanuel Swedenborg, the same Emanuel Swedenborg who taught that the Last Judgement had already occurred, in 1757, that he had regular conversations with Christians on Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Saturn, Venus, and the moon. And who was a major source of plagiarised material for Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the other founders of the LDS church?
“LDS teaches us to be selfless and if we are and resist evil and do good and believe in Jesus Christ we will be in a good place whether mormon or any other religion.”
Simply untrue I am afraid the LDS church teaches that
“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight …. He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).”
For a religion to preach that God himself declared everyone not a Mormon to be party to “an abomination in his sight “ hardly sounds like those people are going to be in a ‘good’ place. Regardless of whether you call it Celestial, telestial or terrestrial (ridiculous names by the way which show a total ignorance of etymology or linguistics) none are to be compared with the third level of the Celestial Kingdom where the Mormon elite go after death, by comparison all others are simply levels of Hell.
Mormonism is simply deceitful, it lies to the world and it lies to it’s own, it wears a kindly face and an expensive suit but it takes only a scratch of the surface to reveal the ugliness underneath.
A word of warning, not everything you read on the internet is necessary true, if you really want to know if what you see on such websites as this one, mormon think and staylds.org etc. are true search where the information thrown at the Church is obtained.
You will find as I did that the misleading inuendos, comments taken completely out of context and downright lies, are from people with their own agendas.
People who are on the fringes of the Church, many of them excommunicated from the Church with axes to grind. They rely on such publications as Eber D Howe’s book “Mormonism Unveiled”, other papers written by ex BYU professors who are bitter and twisted by their own conduct leading to their dismissal.
President Boyd K Packer rightly said such people leave the Church, but they cannot leave it alone.
If the people who run these web sites are really christian they should examine their motives for their attacks against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints, what are you worried about, if ,as you obviously think, the Church is false and we are not led by revelation, why are you so worried. One last thought when you stand on the platform of truth, no amount of untruth, lies and slander can affect the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ has always been mocked, persecuted and villified. The Saviour Himself was hated and crucified for the truth so why are we not surprised by the Satanic attacks from people in our day. Jeff Walsh
Hi Jeff thanks for your thoughts, I think although obviously you are coming at this from a different perspective to me I totally respect your comment to check where the information at the church is obtained. To anyone reading this I would echo those words from this commentor.
The problem is though that people are doing that and still leaving in large numbers, Mormonism Unveiled is likely one of the books contributing to this however the amount of materials leading to people leaving are very far from limited to that.
You say these people have axes to grind, this is Mormon damage control thinking spread by the church. The 3 reasons the Mormon church says people leave are their own sin, too much pride to follow the Prophet or someone has offended them.
This is very untrue, people are leaving to the extent that Marlin Jenson of the 70 said they are because of information they are findind out about the Church. This is bishops, stake presidents as well as regular members, not people on the fringles with axes to grind. As an example of this I would ask you to look at this resignation letter of a bishop who recently left http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/04/24/uk-bishops-resignation-letter/
Interestingly Boyd K Packer has always been quoted for saying this:
“I have a hard time with historians… because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.”
Apostle Boyd K. Packer, as related by D. Michael Quinn, “Pillars of My Faith,” talk delivered at Sunstone Symposium, Salt Lake City, August 19, 1994.
I would simply say to you Jeff are you looking up the sources for things like me and others are saying, or is that just a way of putting everything I say down to being evil anti-mormon lies that could not possibly be true to the source material? Many people have looked into it for themselves and have not liked what they found.
Thanks Bobby, Yes I have checked the sources of much of the information found on these and other web sites, and I disagree with you that this damage control thinking by the Church. there are many members of the Church who follow Brigham Young’s advice and gain a testimony of things for themselves. Unlike many members of the Church who you say are leaving the fold, I ask myself what are the motives behind these (so called) caring people who are anxious to “reclaim” the dis-enchanted members of the Church. Since you have mentioned D Michael Quinn, let us explore his motives.
He was a well respected BYU professor who worked as a research assistant with Leonard Arrington the Church Historian and because of this he had access to the Church Historian’s archives. He began to publish papers and books which abused the position and because of this he was censured and put under observation, he was caught doing things with some of the male students which he should not have been doing and as a result he was asked to leave quietly or be publicly exposed. He chose to go quietly and not only did he lose his job he lost his family as well. Since that time he has become the champion of the homesexual and lesbian group of the Sunstone community. He is one of the main contributors of the “information”. including the outragous stories of the so called immorality and polyandrous behaviour of Joseph Smith and others.
Lets now look at E D Howe and Mormonism Unveiled Eber D Howe was not a member of the Church but his wife and family were, this was the beginning of his hatred for the Church,
Almost every anti-mormon book, including D Michael Quinn’s contributions, quotes from this book as the “authentic” truth, after all Mr Howe lived in the vicinity and at the same time as Joseph Smith so can be called on to give as the truth. But is the material in the book “truth”. Well I have a copy of the book and this is the scource of most of the disparaging “information”. He is the one who is the source of the “Stone in the Hat” story and other downright lies which is now bandied around and believed and used to bash the Church and the Prophet Joseph. “Doctor” Philastus Hurlbut’s contribution to Mormonism Unveiled now needs to be explored.
Before joining the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints he was a Methodist minister, excommunicated by them, for unvirtuous behavior with a young girl. Shortly after be came into the Church he almost immediately attempted to seduce another young girl and was immediately ecommunicated. Following this he was recruited by a anti-mormon group (yes we had them even then) to gather affidavits from members of the Presbytarian community and others who signed papers prepared by the anti’s, disparaging and blackening the characters of the Smith family especially Joseph Smith Jnr. This so called evidence is included in Mormonism Unveiled and where the “treasure digging” stories originated.
Now lets look at the other contributor to E D Howe’s book Ezra Booth.
Before joining the Church he was a Methodist minister paid no doubt for his services, shortly after he joined was sent on a mission during which he in some way incurred the displeasure of the Lord (D&C 65:15-16). Following this he left the Church and renounced mormonism and published a series of nine letters in the “Ohio Star”. After this he founded the short lived “Church of Christ” and pronounced that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and the Book of Mormon was not true.
These nine letters are also published in “Mormonism Unveiled”.
Another scource of anti-mormon materials are produced and published by Jerold and Sandra Tanner who I consider to be modern Korihor’s their hatred for the Church is blatent. Anything they produce should strike a warning bell in the minds of active members of the Church.
I need not go in detail into other contributors of the “information”, such as Abner Cole (Obadiah Dogberry), the other members of the “November six”, (Except to commend Avraham Gileaidi for his returning to the fold), William Law, John C Bennett, Ann Eliza Young, William Smith the Prophet’s younger brother, Grant H Palmer, etc etc etc, these also had axes to grind.
Need I go on, Satan has surely gathered a “mighty” army in the beginning of his final assault upon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Please if anyone is being seduced by these web sites or believing this “information” it is not too late to go back and rely on the testimonies that you received from the Lord when you first investigated the Church.
The Saviour said that in the last days if it were possible Satan would deceive the very elect, I say to anyone who has been deceived by these things to have the courage to come back..
I am reminded of 2 warnings that have been given to us by 2 of the prohphets of this dispensation.
“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, and those who have will be forgotten (mark this D Michael Quinn {my insertion}) in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will be ever with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God attatched to Joseph Smith’s name and examplified by him will never die” (President Harold B Lee CR Oct 1947 pp 66-67)
No hallowed hand can stop the work of God from progressing, Persecution may rage, mobs may combine, ARMIES MAY ASSEMBLE, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly and indepenently, until it has penetrated every continent, and visited every clime, swept over the country and sounded in every ear till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done. ( Joseph Smith quoted from an interview with Josiah Quincy and Joseph Smith in 1844)
It’s funny jeff you are confirming the stereotypes of how Mormons deal with criticisms of the church. Meaning you dont deal with the issues raised themselves but rather criticise the people who raise them, thus in your eyes making anything they say unreliable.
I would challenge you to look at the link I gave of a very honest mormon bishops letter of resignation and comment on what he says. If you can do that let’s keep this going otherwise you are just playing the old game of shoot the messenger so that you can ignore the message.
It is also very funny Bobby that you are so closed minded about these issues that you come up with YOUR sterotypes that you and your ilk use whenever your views are challanged by people who do not agree with you. I do say that the things which the whole list of people mentioned in my last reply are unreliable haven’t you even considered that they may be untrue
It is easy for anyone to speak ill of those who are not alive to challange you, cannot you see that you also are being deceived by evil and designing men who make it their sole aim in life to destroy the faith of others.
I HAVE dealt with the issues, why should I take on face value the things these enemies to truth have said without looking into the motives behind their attacks.
I have looked at the letter which Steve Bloor sent to his Stake President. I happen to know Steve and have great respect for him, he was a member of our stake. The concerns he has which lead him to do what he did are the very issues we are now discussing, which have their foundations in untruth.
I have looked at both sides of the issues and unlike you could show that there are answers which address all of the concerns of Steve. Enemies to Joseph Smith take statements that others have made about the First Vision and fool people into thinking that he contradicted himself. The truth of the matter was given by Joseph Smith when in 1838 he said:-
“Owing to the many reports (E D Howe, Hurlbut, Law, Bennett, etc,) which have been put in circulation by evil-disposed and designing men in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors (Satan and his cohorts) thereof to militate against its character as a Church, and its progress in the world, I have been induced to write this history……. JSH 1:1
I have address the issue of the “Stone in the Hat” story, they are the inventions of Eber D Howe repeated by a host of others all to satisfy their own ends.
As far as the so called polyandry of Joseph Smith and others are concerned if you know anything about the Church beyond these frenzied ramplings of Quinn you should know that most of the so called marriages of Joseph Smith and others found on Familysearch.org are eternal sealings and not consumated marriages. There I have addressed this issue.
All these and other issues such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre etc etc have been addressed by the Church which you could find by spending part of your time more productively searching for these answers, instead of raking about and bying books written by apostates who are motivated by avarice , who try to find and twist the bits of information which are then given as ” so called evidence” proving as they think to thwart the progress of the Church. I feel sorry for you and others who lead this attack against the Lord’s Church because as with all Satan’s scheming, these things will eventually come to naught and just as the anti-christs spoken of in the Book of Mormon will come to realise that they too have been deceived, and he will not own them as his own.Jeff Walsh
Jeff you have not addressed anything, your statement saying most of smiths Marriages were sealings and not consummated opens a massive door to the fact that some were consummated and some of these were with married women in secret. This is adultery the true origin of polygamy in mormonism.
I appreciate your point that sources need to be evaluated however when there are sources as many in quantity and closeness to smith that raises problems. Your insistence to keep focusing on E D Howe makes me wonder how much looking you have done.
However ultimately I can see this is a spiritual matter in your eyes and the facts are secondary, I am an evil ex Mormon in your eyes and nothing I say could be trusted ether so I will waste no more of my time but thanks for commenting, if you ever want to objectively discuss these issues I would be happy too.
I have read the material on mormon think and even though you do not like it it was D Michael Quinn who authored the paper which revealed this issue and he quotes from all the various sources which cannot be corroborated or have come from other disaffected members, If you do not think the motives of this man needs scrutiny, then I am afraid that you are naive and blinkered. Hopefully there may be others on the site who are not so afflicted. Objectivity is of course the name of the game.
It is interesting that you do admit to being an ex mormon, I do not think you are evil and at some future time let the Lord choose between thee and me. Jeff Walsh
My mistake I meant anti Mormon., I have never been one apologies for that.
And my honest hope is God chooses us both, I do all this out of that hope.
God bless you.
Just before we part company, could you ask Jim Whitefield (who will not talk with apologists) where the proof is that Joseph Smith practiced polyandrey, I have read all the so called evidence passed down through the years which just keep repeating the same old lies and embelishments. Jeff
No your free to ask him yourself. People are leaving mormonism more than ever because of this information it’s just down to whether people want to accept it.
As well I have read whitefields book on polygamy and it’s full of references I would suggest you start there.
Ok sorry I thought that the middle chap on your crew was Jim Whitefield, oh and by the way you the other anti-mormons are guilty of repeating information which other so called active (really inactive or excommunicated members) are saying, who have been deceived by bitter people who have axes to grind You really should study the revelation received in 1894 by President Woodruff recinding the Law of Adoption, and if you have the inspiration of the Spirit, you will then know the truth behind what you called the adultery of Joseph Smith. Just a parting thought on plural marriage, what is worse women being married legally which was then not against the law of the land, or all of the real adultery of casual sexual relations between men and women not legally married which seems to be accepted today as normal!!!!!! Jeff Walsh
Here is my answer Jeff, its a bit long but its the story of one of Josephs Wives, ill let you decide the answer to that question.
The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. That summer Lucy’s Mother contracted malaria and died months later in January 1842, leaving ten children. Her Father, John, was heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”. Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife. You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have Just such a family as I could love. My house shall be their home…place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children…” The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones…” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house.
While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me…He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’…He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”
“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother…Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”
Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”
Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural mariage’” and “I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such.” Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”
After Joseph was killed in June 1844, Lucy married Heber C. Kimball. Explaining the relationship, Lucy said, “…The contract when I married Mr. Kimball was that I should be his wife for time, and time only, …and in the resurrection [he] would surrender me, with my children, to Joseph Smith.”
Brigham Young taught that “no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.” As Heber lay on his death bed he called Lucy to his side and hoping to win favor with Joseph Smith, asked her, “What can you tell Joseph when you meet him? Cannot you say that I have been kind to you as it was possible to be under the circumstances? I know you can, and am confident you will be as a mediator between me and Joseph…”
(http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)
Taking a young girls Father away from her after losing her mother, and then telling her she has to marry him and her familys salvation depends on it, is not a prophet I would want to believe in and follow. Its not about having the spirit or not, just having your eyes open or closed.
Bobby, I am sorry that I have not been able to reply sooner as I have been busy at Church, I am now home and had lunch so I can reply to your last contribution.
To start with I do not have any problem with plural marriage the word of the Lord whether you like it or not is that it was a commandment given to us from the Lord. If you are in possesion of one of our standard works called the Doctrine and Covenants please read Section 132 where Joseph asked the Lord to explain why he the Lord had justified Abraham, Isaac and Jacob etc to enter into plural marriage. Section 132 is the answer. Joseph and others accepted this commandment and entered into plural marriage. These marriages were entered into and they were legal and binding.
The real problem though is to separate out the conditions that most of the “marriages ” were entered into, Joseph received this revelation as early as 1831 but was very reticent to publish the revelation because he knew what a storm of persecution that would come from the already hostile people outside of the church , and it was not until Jul 12 1843 that he had the revelation put into print.
As I said in my last message many of the so called marriages were in fact sealings contracted under what was called the law of Adoption. Some of the marriages were entered into and were consumated, I freely accept this, what your problem is that you do not believe that this was the Lord’s will, can you prove it wasn’t?
I am glad that you brought up the marriage of Joseph Smith to Lucy Walker, this is a perfect example of the way people anatganistic to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints mislead, twist and add things and which do not appear in the original story. The origin of the story which you say comes from http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org is actually taken from the Daughters of Utah Pioneers called “Reminicicences of Latter-Day Saints compiled by Lyman O Littlefield. Interestingly he says of one entry what he calls a very interesting contribution kindly furnished to these pages by Mrs Lucy Walker Kimball.
The story which you claim as authentic taken from wivesofjosephsmith.org only gives a shortened and twisted and distorted version of what Lucy actually gives., I will show you how the twisted and bitter minds of those who try to blacken the name of Joseph Smith operate.
Your version begins about a third of the way through the story and opens with the Walker family arriving in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. By the way your story does not give any background of what Nauvoo was really like when the Saints, who had been driven out of various places because of persecution, was like at that time. The old place called Commerce later named Nauvoo was on a bend of the Mississippi river and was mostly swamp land until the saints drained and cultivated the land which eventually became a very lovely and large city. I am sure that it was the swampy conditions which was the cause of the malaria which took the life of Lucy’s mother. Again your version misses out what Lucy’s mother said to her family before she died. Calling her children to her bedside she bore a faithful testimony as to her convictions that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and that through him the gospel had been restored in its fulness. She adminished her children never to depart from the truth
Your information now starts with the twisting of the facts, Lucy says her father was heartbroken and his health “seemed to give way”. She then says that Joseph Smith came to the rescue and says to her father John, if you remain here Bro Walker you will soon follow your wife, you must have a change of scene a change of climate. What Joseph is saying that the atmosphere that they were living in ie. the swampy conditions would not suit his health, to combat this Joseph sends him on the first of his 2 missions to the Eastern States, not to get rid of him but for the sake of his health. The Prophet then very kindly says that most and eventually all of the family move into the Nauvoo House which had just been built as an hotel to house visitors to the City. Obviously 15 year old Lucy is concerned about the family being split up in this way. Joseph then said “My home shall be your home, eternally yours”, I understood him not.
Lucy then says, and of course this is also left out of the twisted account, My father sought to comfort us by saying two years will soon pass, and the with renewed health he hoped to return and make us a home where we might be together again. She then says, and again a glaring ommision because this shows the compassion of Joseph, her sister aged 8 yearsand 11 month Lydia is attacked by brain fever and the when Joseph sees how sick she was, Joseph took her and baptised her in the Mississippi River, and then nursed her until she died. The Lucy says this:-
“Here allow me to say that our own father and mother could scarcely have done more or manifested greater solicitude for her recovery than did the Prophet and his wife Emma.” Later on she says, “The Prophet and his wife introduced us as their sons and daughters, every priveledge was accorded us in the home. She then goes on to tell us that her brother William married and after staying at the Nauvoo House for 6 months went and set up home for themselves and took the children with them.
She then recommences the story by going back to 1842 when Joseph saught an interview with her and said I have a message for you, The story goes on nearly the same as your narative, except instead of Jospeh saying it will have to be a secret, what he actually says is Although I cannot, under the existing circumstances, acknowledge you as my wife, the time is near when we will go beyond the Rocky Mountains, and then you will be acknowledged and honoured as my wife. This principle will yet be believed in and accepted by the righteous”. The Prophet then tells her it is a commandment of God and you need to decide on this matter. The reason why Joseph could not acknowledge her as a wife was because the revelation had not at that time been printed
Again left out Lucy says that Joseph, seeing her distess said, “God Almighty bless you, You shall have a manifestation of the will of God concerning you, a testimony that you can never deny, I will tell you what it shall be . It will be that joy and peace that you never knew.”
The following is not given by your narrative, “Lucy says it was near dawn after another sleepless night when my room was lighted up by a heavenly influence. To me it was in comparison, like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud. The words of the Prophet were indeed fulfilled, My soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace, that I never knew. Supreme happiness took possesion of me, and I received a powerfull and irresistable testimony of the truth of plural marriage, which has been like an anchor to my soul through all the trials of life.” she then goes downstairs and Joseph opened the door below, took me by the hand and said, ” Thank God, you have a testimony , I too have prayed.” he led me to a chair and then placed his hands upon my head and blessed me with every blessing my heart could possibly desire.
Now here comes a very typical tactic of the evil minded person who authored you version, Lucy says , “The first day of May 1843, I consented to become the Prophets wife, and was SEALED to him for time and all eternity, at his own house by Elder William Clayton. Your version said that Lucy MARRIED Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabited with him. This is obviously added by the person perpetrating the lie. Your version says that Emma was not there and knew nothing about this, and did not consent to the marriage, this is again a lie.
Lucy says in the true account, ” Emma Smith was present and did consent to Eliza and Emily Partridge, also Maria and Sarah Lawrence, being SEALED to her husband. This I had from the Prophet’s own mouth, also the testimony of her neice, Hyrum Smith’s eldest daughter. as well as that of the young ladies named themselves.
As for Lucy saying that “it was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, at least on my part it was not, (implying it was on Joseph’s),
What she actually said was, ” In this I acted in accordance with the will of God, not for any worldly agrandizement, not for gratification of the flesh, How can it be said we accepted this principle for any lustful desires Preposterous.
Emma said that her one regret was that I have not been a more worthy representative of the principle of prural marriage.
Lucy said that following the sealing to Joseph and, following his martyrdom she became the wife of Heber C Kimball as a plural wife, who cared for and looked after her welfare and indeed had 9 children by him. She says that she had a wonderfull life and was supremly happy.
What a different picture your perversion of the account gives.
I have pointed out the truth and have shown what I have been saying all along, There are people in the Church who are willing to look into these things, but there are those who are not content to accept blindly as presumably you and your band of so called “Christians” portraying yourselves as caring people are. Whereas I believe what you really are i wolves in sheep’s clothing spoken by the apostle Paul says would come in the last days.
I am also sure that just as Joseph Smith has been vindicated by the truth so all the other outrageous lies and blasphemous things he has been accused of will have the same vindication
All of the other peversions of the things you say about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be answered too
So Bobby maybe you are not as clever as you portray yourself.
Could I suggest that you spend your time doing something constructive in you life rather than trying to destroy the faith of people who do not accept teachings of the Bible the way you do.
I have been tempted to point out the glaring errors in the doctrines that you so called “born again Christians ” believe such as the concept of the Godhood as explained by the Council of Nicea, But I will resist the urge. Jeff
Hi Jeff you are welcome to comment on any part of this blog you like, there are parts where I state Christian doctrine and you are welcome to critique that.
Regarding the context you brought to the Lucy Walker story I would simply say thankyou, I am glad to think there is a nicer part to the story and you have challenged me to look into more sources before I add comments to a discussion. However this is still a case where Joseph Smith approached a 17 year old girl to be his plural wife and told her that her family would be saved too, thus putting a lot of pressure on her.
This is very much still a concern of mine even if there are nicer sides to it, I believe there are cases where Smith told women that he would die if they did not marry him also, this even more so concerns me, however none the less you have brought extra information on the discussion and i appreciate it, I in no way claimed to be “clever”, this is not a battle of the wits for me but rather I am following Gods call to reach out to people who are not following the biblical gospel, which Galatians 1:8 gives a clear warning on.
Hi Bobby, thanks for your reply, first of all I think I maybe took out some of my frustration on you and I am sorry about this, but I do get a little irritated when people attack Joseph Smith and try to blacken his character. I really do believe that he was called of God to restore the true Church of Jesus Christ to the earth and I would really like to discuss with you Gal 1:8 because this is the very heart of understanding the Gospel which our Saviour taught and the commission that he gave His Apostles to go into all the world and preach His gospel Mark 16:15-16. So I will accept your invitation to discuss this but first as I was glancing through your site I notice under the title Witnessing to Mormons I notice that Susan O Farrell bore her testimony to you and then you asked her to give an interpretation of a couple of scriptures.. So I will close this and go to the other posts and reply to you from there. Jeff Walsh
Jeff thanks for that comment its really appreciated.
Although I am presenting information critical of Mormonism I have always made it my goal to have positive friendly discussions where possible, whether you agree with my motives being loving or not that is the way I see it.
However I do appreciate how this can feel to someone from your perspective so I appreciate why were you saying what you have said, lets have a fresh start and hopefully have some good discussions. I totally respect you as a Mormon and your right to believe what you believe and please by all means challenge anything I have said in this blog that you wish to, and I look forward to some good thoughtful discussions.
I agree , so let me ask you a few questions so that I can understand where you are coming from.
1, What is the gospel of Jesus Christ?
2. Did Jesus Christ organise a Church?
3. Who comprises the Godhead?
4 What is our relationship to God?.
5, Did we exist before we came to the earth? Is there a purpose for our being here, Where do we go when we die?
While I am waiting for your reply to try and shorten the lime this is going to take, I will start another reply to give my understanding of the questions. Jeff Walsh
PS did you get my comments on 2Ne25 and Moroni 10?
Great questions jeff I’m at work for the day now so will reply later, I have seen and replied to your other comment too.
Actually for the sake of keeping posts on topic can you email me your thoughts on this at [email protected] and i will email you mine, I won’t do this for every discussion we have, just where it goes off the topic of the original post in case anyone else wants to comment
I love D&C 65 so much I got carried away, the reference concerning Ezra Booth should be D&C 64:15-16 Jeff Walsh. By the way I am sure that President Packer in that piece by D Michael Quinn was infering that the historian’s version of the truth destroys, another example of the twisted mind of Quinn. Sorry Jeff Walsh
In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith
Ellie this is the very book by Todd Compton that I referred to in comments above who twisted the version that Lucy gave so maybe you should not advertise this book until you do some investigation into the motives and the character of its author. Another word of warning why do people who claim to seek the truth investigate anti-mormon sites rather than the source of truth found in the Lord’s Church. Back in 1823 Moroni told Joseph that his name would be had for good or evil throughout the world remember this was said when Joseph was a back woods nobody 18 years of age. We are living in this time when this prophecy is being enacted before our eyes. One last thought satan does not have very long left before our Saviour comes again, and he is bound for 1,000 years so do not be found among the tares which will be bound together when the wheat is being gathered. Jeff