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Do you know Jesus?
Knowing people is a fascinating part of life, seeing the different aspects, personalities, preferences quirks etc of people is always very interesting. It goes without saying that some people we only get to know to a very limited extent and some we really build relationships and maybe build a life together with.
The more important someone is to us the more likely we are going to know them better, that’s again basic stuff, but leads right into looking at Jesus. Those who know Him to any extent know that He is the most significant, life changing person that ever existed.
In the Bible we see that eternal life comes from knowing Jesus.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is a massive issue, many people in the world today often think that if they just do their best in life and let the good things they do outweigh the bad then they will be ok. We see Jesus Himself speak to people here that were seemingly doing good things.
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If we do not truly know Jesus even good works that we do are nothing to Christ. Isaiah 64:6 says we are ALL unclean and our good works are like filthy rags to God. Knowing Jesus is what truly saves, not anything that we can do.
So who is this Jesus? This article is going to look at two areas.
1, The person of Jesus.
2, The Offices of Jesus.
So for number 1 We see that Biblically Jesus is completely and utterly God.
Colossians 1:16 says For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
All things created By Him and For Him. We see that the Saviour is not only able to create, but the things that He creates are created for Him. We see this in Isaiah.
Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
We see that this old Testament God that created man for His glory, this Jesus in the New Testament created all things for Himself. If Jesus was not God He would be subject to the wrath of this Old Testament God as we see here:
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
In Philippians we see the amazing humility that this Jesus displayed in coming to earth and doing all that He did for us.
Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus thought is not robbery to be equal with God. That is very significant. In the New Testament greek we see “Theos” as the word used to mean God, which is mostly by far referring to the Father. We see here then that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to the Father. This is because of His absolute glory and majesty before He came to the earth.
Consider this scene in Batman Begins.
Here we see Bruce Wayne trying to experience the Criminal world without ever actually becoming a criminal. He is caught robbing a warehouse but rightly claims he is no criminal because He actually owns the warehouse. He thought it not robbery to take items from it, this is the same with Jesus absolute equality with His Father. However in Mormonism we see a different story.
Also its worth noting that in the LDS Church it is taught that most of the references to God in the Old Testament are the pre human Jesus. It is taught that Jehovah is Jesus and Elohim is God the Father, here is a quote from a past Mormon Apostle James Talmage.
“It is to be remembered that the Personage most generally designated in the Old Testament as God or the Lord, is He who in the mortal state was known as Jesus Christ, and in the antemortal state as Jehovah” (Articles of Faith, 465-466).
However Biblically this seems to not be the case. In the Hebrew when it says Lord it is referring to Jehovah and when it says God it is referring to Elohim, with that in mind consider these verses.
- “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him” (Deut. 4:35).
- “That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else” (1 Kings 8:60).
- “Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;” (Psalm 100:3).
- “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God” (Zech. 13:9).
Here is a quote from 10th Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith showing something of the LDS view of the nature of Christ.
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Sav- ior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).
In Mormonism Jesus is another one of us. Just elevated initially because He was the firstborn of our heavenly parents. He had to go through the same plan of salvation that we all do, so that then what was lacking in Him could be made complete. This is not the Jesus of the Bible. This is actually not humility.
Ask yourself the question, if Jesus coming to the earth and carrying out the Atonement for us, brought upon Himself an eternity of honour and glory in His exaltation, where was the sacrifice in what He did on the earth? Was it not really an opportunity?
Jesus said unless you believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24) Do you really believe that Jesus is the great I am? The eternal glorious creator of all things who never needed anything, who never had need of anyone to give Him council, who is eternally glorious?
Or is He your elder brother, simply going through the same plan of salvation you are, and may one day be your equal, depending on how you live your life?
Secondly, I want to focus on the Offices of Christ. Actually I am going to look at just one, that is his Priesthood.
In Old Testament times High Priests carried that role one person at a time until death, we see that stated in Hebrews.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Old Testament High Priests daily offered sacrifices to seek to atone for the sins of themselves and Gods people. This was their most significant role. This role is now totally fulfilled and complete in Christ.
Hebrews 7:24-28 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Jesus, because He will never die has the role of the High Priest forever. The primary role of the High Priest is done and that role is held eternally by Christ. There is no longer the need for human priests to mediate between God and man and here is why:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Yet in Mormonism we see this:
Doctrine and Covenants 68:19
“But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provid- ed he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood”
15th LDS President Gordon B Hinckley
“We have more than 18,000 bishops in the Church. Every one is a man who has been called by the spirit of prophecy and revelation and set apart and ordained by the laying on of hands. Every one of them holds the keys of the presidency of his ward. Each is a high priest, the presiding high priest of his ward. Each carries tremen- dous responsibilities of stewardship. Each stands as a father to his people” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Shepherds of Israel,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2003, p. 60).
Biblically we see one high Priest, that person is Jesus, He carries that role forever like no one ever could. In Mormonism there are thousands of high Priests. An easy way to see the difference between a Mormon and a Christian is to ask who their high Priest is. The Mormon points to a man in their ward, the Christian points to Jesus.
In the great commission we see Jesus say this, watch as this is massively significant!
Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto ME in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Jesus said all power is given to ME therefore go! Do you want to know why you NEVER see a Priesthood blessing referenced in the New Testament? Its because its not the power or authority of the priesthood that the Church needs, but rather it is the power and authority of Jesus.
Hebrews 1:3 says Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
All things are upheld by His Word, by His word He calmed a storm (Mark 4:39), raised a dead man (John 11:43) forgave sin (Luke 5:20), healed the sick (Luke 5:24), and called Apostles (John 1:42) this Jesus word alone carried more power than any church governmental authority, He has all power and authority by vitrtue of His nature alone.
If you are in Jesus then all the power and authority you need is given unto you, because He has it, and has said GO. You are commissioned, equipped, and empowered by being in Christ.
Finally and most significantly, Salvation comes from His name and no other place. If you know and trust Christ your eternity is sealed in Him.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you know this Jesus? Has He saved you to the uttermost? Is His authority in you? Do you look to Him for all you need or is it found in an organization? The answer will affect your eternity.
“If we do not truly know Jesus even good works that we do are nothing to Christ. Isaiah 64:6 says we are ALL unclean and our good works are like filthy rags to God. ” Speak for yourself Bob.
Come on man this Blood and thunder, hell, fire and brimstone rhetoric is beneath you, I may not be a Christian but even I find that insulting to be equated with a filthy rag, don’t you?
Hey henry on your dislike to Isaiah 64:6 you have every right to dislike it, but I am just showing what scripture says.
On your reference to Mark 16 that does nothing to diminish my point. My point is that those things occur with those that are in Christ, priesthood authority is not what is neccesary, nor is there any indication of a priesthood blessing here by name.
The link you showed has been deleted, not constructive to discussion.
Okay Bobby even without the the Isaiah quote their is still your initial contention which you use the prophet to back up ““If we do not truly know Jesus even good works that we do are nothing to Christ.” that is a very hard pill to swallow in light of such statements of Christ as Matthew 7:20
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
or Christ/God’s words to he Church in Ephesus in Revelation 2
1 These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance.
So what of those who lived before Christ came, what of those born in to other cultures who have lived good and honourable lives, are they all condemned without hope, their work amounting to nothing and worthy of no reward or even consideration as mitigation?
Are these the actions of a loving father god?
on the second point you are quibbling over semantics, if it acts like a priest, believes it has the powers of a a priesthood and claims ordination from Jesus, I’d say that is a priest
this is not without precedent recall (Mk. 9:38-40).
“John said unto him, Teacher, we saw one casting out demons in your name; and we forbade him because he followed us not. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man who shall do a mighty work in my name, and be able to quickly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us”
Hi Henry, you may not like what the Bible says, but yes I go with what it says on salvation. Fruits are a fruit of a salvation that has already occurred, in our dead sinful state God does not hear our prayers (Isaiah 59:2) nor see any good in our works (Isaiah 64:6) however in Christ which is a total gift we can do works pleasing to God (ephesians 2:8-10)
Secondly I am differentiating between the power of Christs word and an eternal priesthood that He supposedly gets His power and priesthood from, the difference is Him being eternal and powerful by nature, or whether He gained it from obedience, the difference is massive.
“Do you want to know why you NEVER see a Priesthood blessing in the New Testament? Its because its not the power or authority of the priesthood that the Church needs, but rather it is the power and authority of Jesus.”
Sorry but how then do you explain this then Bobby
Mark 16:15-18
15 He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Three final question then,
1) what was the point of the atonement if these old testament passages still hold true? Matthew 5:17, isn’t the out of context quote :6 actually part of a prayer for salvation and the coming of the messiah that all men can be saved?
Isaiah 64: 8-9
Yet you, Lord, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
2 What was the point of the Pentacost? Acts 2:1–6
And
3 if you agree with the Mormon/Quaker ideal that the true priesthood was lost in spite of Romans 12:1 why do you still believe, practice and preach the rites of the holy sacraments?
No probs
1, The people of the Old Testament were not faithful to Gods standards, due to their apostasy the covenant was broken. We see this in Romans 11, they were broken off because of unbelief (v20)
Jesus fulfilled what was prophesied right through the Old Testament, often verses like Amos 8:11 that the LDS church use to say an apostasy of the Christian church is coming, it was actually about the apostasy of the Old Testament people.
2, To empower believers to preach the gospel.
3, What do you base your assumption about my belief on here? The sacrament as in taking bread and wine I assume? Is as Jesus said, in remembrance of what He did. If I have misinterpreted the question please let me know.
True priesthood very much exists, and it is in Christ, the new testament only talks about an active priesthood aside from this in the collective.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
All believers by virtue of being in Christ hold the Priesthood, it is not a church function for the few based on worthiness.
“What do you base your assumption about my belief on here? ” I base them on the fact that you are a Christian, you therefore can be assumed to practice the communion, marriage, baptism, rites for the dead and the administration of the five gifts of the spirit? Or am I presuming too much.
“To empower believers to preach the gospel.” How is that NOT a priesthood?
“All believers by virtue of being in Christ hold the Priesthood,” isn’t that exactly what the LDS teach.they even use the same scripture you quoted as proof of this
I’m sorry but Roman 11:20 has nothing to do with the discussion we are having Romans 11 is about the restoration of Israel ( in the form of Christianity) contemporary to its composition and how some have “hardened their hearts” against that restoration because of the inclusion of Gentiles in the Gospel, so why have you quoted it as a reference to the Old Testament apostasy?
Remember you are thinking with an Ex LDS mind, biblically priesthood is to mediate between God and man, offer sacrifices for sin etc. Jesus holds this forever, all of our power and authority is delegated from Him, who is in nature God and has power in His own nature rather than some priesthood power or authority granted to Him.
Romans 11 tells us why the gentiles (non Jews) have been given salvation (or grafted onto the tree) because of the apostasy of the Jews, yes they still have promises to them, but this does explain why some of the covenants of the Old Testament were broken and why Christ came, as was prophesied that He would.
Mormonism does not teach all believers have the priesthood, it teaches worthy males hold Priesthood offices in the Church. This is by no means taken in the same way.
I assume you will have picked up on this, but I do not go with the Catholic notion of the Priesthood either.
I was about to stop following this website because i am tired of the lies and distortions used by anti-Christs who try to destroy Christ’s church, but some of the claims are so ridiculous that I was pulled in after reading the comments and seeing the response to them.
First off, I am a Saint and member of The Church of Jesus Christ. I share int he priesthood of Christ and I agree with the assumptions made here that all true followers of Jesus have the priesthood.
With that said, women have access to the priesthood but do not exercise it outside of the temple because it has not been given to then to do so yet at this point in time. They may not ever be ordained the way men are, but they do have access to the priesthood as all true Christians do.
Only worthy men in the Church of Christ are ordained to the priesthood by direct revelation from God. The Bible has nothing to do with what occurs now and it proves nothing for or against God’s church today. So what that things are not the same in every aspect. There are more Christians now than there were then and more priesthood leaders and holders now.
Christ promised to share with us all that he has and we become joint heirs. When we are baptised we receive the Holy Ghost who is a member of the Godhead. We enter into the presence of God. We then are given priesthood if we are men so that we can do the work of God as joint-heirs in His glory. In this life, we experience a level of God and His power in the Holy Ghost. If we are very righteous, we can receive the second comforter or Jesus Himself.
Ouch Im an Anti Christ, how do you define that term Rodric?
There seem to be a lot of LDS Women that dont think that temple priesthood is enough, have you seen this site?
http://ordainwomen.org/
The Bible has nothing for what happens now? Wow, your church seems to think otherwise.
The truth is that the Church reveres the Bible as a sacred volume of scripture. Latter-day Saints cherish its teachings and engage in a lifelong study of its divine wisdom. Moreover, during worship and instruction services the Bible and its teachings are pondered and discussed. To increase biblical understanding, the Church provides extensive resources and tools: lesson manuals, cross-reference materials, Bible maps, a Bible dictionary, and articles in various magazines. Thus, the Bible is much more than simply a collection of antiquated writings and revelations that have only scant relevance to the modern world. On the contrary, it stands in the center of the Latter-day Saints’ spiritual lives.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/reverence-for-the-bible
In reality the Mormon Church has gone way beyond, sadly to the point of outright contradicting what the Bible teaches on the Priesthood. In the New Testament there is the collective priesthood and the Priesthood of Christ, the Old Testament covenant is called old and obsolete in Hebrews 8:13, thus this priesthood that your church resurrected is also old and obsolete, this article is merely done out of concern for you guys. I would heavily recommend you read the book of Hebrews from beginning to end.
However could you please explain how you feel all true followers of Jesus have the Priesthood?
Hope to hear back from you.
“Remember you are thinking with an Ex LDS mind, “
Actually Bob I’m ex Anglican, Ex society of friends, ex Mormon and Ex Born Again.
In short I’m ex ex Chrisitian, I spent a lot of time and effort studying and seeking the right church, only to find, for me, it does not exist.
biblically priesthood is to mediate between God and man, offer sacrifices for sin etc.
Biblically there is no definition of what a priest actually is or does, there are plenty of instructions on what he must not be, disabled, ill, a dwarf or a eunuch see Leviticus 21:16-23 for example, how he should dress Exodus 28:40-43 and how he should be ordained Exodus 29:1-37 or how he must be a decendant of Aaron, but very little about what a priest actually is or does other than administer the law of Moses on behalf of and as a representative of God
Jesus holds this forever, all of our power and authority is delegated from Him, who is in nature God and has power in
So again what was the Pentacost? This surely was the holy spirit decending on men and empowering them personally, not a delegation of power.
By the way there were no women in that upper room either, another reason why the LDS, RC and others deny the priesthood to women.
His own nature rather than some priesthood power or authority granted to Him.
SO what was the Holy spirit / dove and the commanding voice of God doing at Jesus’ baptism if not empowering him and granting authority?
Hi there Henry my apologies for making assumption on your mindset, I was not aware you had been in those groups too.
Regarding The bible stating what Priests do, here is the first part that came to mind in Hebrews 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
This is why Priests are not neccesary today, as this is what they did and Christ has done it once and for all.
Pentecost was an empowering to preach the gospel rather than a giving of authority to do it.
Jesus was baptized as He said to “fulfill all righteousness” as Jesus was a (last) holder of the Old Testament Priesthood and being washed in water was neccesary in ordination for this role.
Exodus 29:1,4, “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect” … 4 “Then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the doorway of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water.”
Leviticus 8:6, “Then Moses had Aaron and his sons come near, and washed them with water.”
However today we are baptized to identify with Christ.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).
In the old testament Priests were also annointed with oil.
Exodus 29:7, “Then you shall take the anointing oil, and pour it on his head and anoint him.”
This was representative of being annointed with the Holy Spirit which Jesus recieved directly. More on this here
http://carm.org/questions/why-was-jesus-baptized
Thanks Henry talk soon
Gonna carry this one on in a few days when back from Chorley Henry talk soon!
safe journey
Could you please re-align the CTR Jesus 10 spaces further left to the current margin so I can print it out to give to my mormon niece?