Hey all, some of you may have noticed me linking to Russ Bale’s  interview by Suzanne Witt the other day on why he reaches out to Mormons.

Yesterday I was also interviewed by Suzanne on why I do this, please see that interview above. I thought this would be helpful as this is a question I am often asked, and so often I think Mormons assume its out of some hatred on my part towards Mormons, of even the Mormon Church.

Please give this interview a listen and I hope you will see this is not the case. You may not agree with my conclusions, but I hope in the least you will see that my motivation is not in anyway a negative thing.

As ever I am open and looking forward to your comments.

Hey all you may have seen that I was speaking at the Apologetics in Manchester Event recently, on the issue of reaching out to Mormons. For those that missed it and might have liked to have heard it please check out the audio below.

Also our very own Tony Brown is speaking there on the 11th May at 10am on Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you would like more information on this please let me know.

This was a particularly good day. After the event a few of us went out for lunch. Just minutes after we sat down two Mormon Missionaries walked in. We invited them to join us and had a great time. Funny how these things work out.

Hi all we had a great day on the 19th looking at the upcoming Mormon  Pageant in Chorley and the great outreach opportunity that this will be. This ministry is unashamedly open in the fact that we intend on being there in July/August to have as many witnessing encounters with Mormons as possible. We will not be there with banners saying “Mormonism is a Cult” (though we cant account for whoever else might turn up) but rather we will seek to lovingly share Jesus in light of the unbiblical teachings of Mormonism.

Anyway you may have noticed the invite to the training day on the 19th of January. For those who didnt make it, particularly understandable with the weather on the day, we have the talks given below on video and audio (right click and save target as to download the audios), please enjoy and let me know on [email protected] or comment below if you would like to be involved or you have any comments and questions on this.

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 1

British Mormon Pageant Training Audio Part 2

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 3

British Mormon Pageant Evangelism Training Audio part 4

Hey all you may be interested in having a listen to this interview I recently did on The Mind Renewed Podcast. We were talking about various aspects of Mormonism and the subject of reaching out to Mormons. This is a fairly new Podcast and it exists to analyse, interpret and critique matters of interest and concern in the world around us from a Christian Worldview perspective. You can get the interview here, or click below.

The Mind Renewed Interview with Bobby Gilpin

(left click to listen, right click, save link as to download)

On Mormonism 101 a recent section on the Mormon Newsroom website stating Mormons beliefs, it says this about Jesus.

1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father

Latter-day Saints believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save all mankind from their sins (see John 3:16). God is a loving Heavenly Father who knows His children individually, hears and answers their prayers, and feels compassion toward them. Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings but along with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are one in will, purpose and love.

Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. He is central to the lives of Church members. They accept His grace and mercy; they seek to follow His example by being baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17), praying in His holy name (see Matthew 6:9-13), partaking of the sacrament (communion) (see Luke 22:19-20), doing good to others (see Acts 10:38) and bearing witness of Him through both word and deed (see James 2:26).

Yet despite what these sources say, Christians worldwide see the Jesus that Mormons believe in as a different Jesus to the bible. What I want to do in this article is look at the background to the LDS view on Jesus compared to the Biblical view, focusing particularly on these 3 areas.

• The Nature of Christ.
• The Glory of Christ.
• The Sufficiency of Christ.

The Nature of Christ

Jesus is as evangelicals believe a part of the Trinity, fully God yet one of the 3 persons that make up the God of the bible. I will spend some time here looking at the biblical evidence for Jesus being God, also looking at His pre earth nature, and the LDS view of His nature compared with biblical statements on this.

So Philippians 2:5-11 says:

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So we see Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God,  Jesus existed in the form of God and then emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being found in the likeness of men.

Jesus was equal to the Father, as well as this we see in Colossians 1:16 that all things were made by Him (which is also said in John 1:3, saying all things that were made, were made by Him)  and for Him. What does that for mean?

We see throughout the bible that God has created humanity for His glory, we exist for His enjoyment over ours.

Isaiah 43:7 says

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if we are made for Gods glory, and we are made by and for Christ, then we are made for Christs glory if He is on an equal level with the Father meaning He is God.

Now I will get on more to the glory of Christ in the next section however in seeing something of the significance of the glory of Christ we get to the heart of who Christ is by nature as in the Old Testament God says this:

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

God will not give His glory to another, hold that thought for later.

In the LDS view we see a difference from the start, my understanding of this view is that Christ was the first to be born of our heavenly parents in the pre-existence in heaven. Christ being the first to be born was given a God like status as a result and He is the example of what we as the spirit children born after Christ can recieve ourselves in terms of glory and exaltation. We will not necessarily be saviours, though there is some belief amongst some LDS that God the Father was a saviour on another planet and that Christ is doing the same on His road to exaltation and that maybe we will do the same later.

However staying on point the general LDS view is that Christ had to come to earth to live out His plan of salvation to receive His full exaltation to be a god, as well as being our saviour in the process.

BYU Professor Robert Millet said this: (BYU is a Mormon Church owned college in Provo Utah)

“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons and daughters of the Father” (A different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter Day saints, p.20)

Also in an LDS manual:

“Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven” (Gospel Principles 1997, p.11).

So according to this view we all have the same background and start in existence as Christ, we existed eternally as intelligences and later gained our Spirit bodies in heaven,  however He was simply first, and was chosen to be the Savior (Abraham 3:27-28, LDS Scripture)

This massively goes against the Biblical view of where Christ came from and where we came from, here’s why:

John 6:46 says Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No one has seen the Father except Him who is of God, what does that mean He is of God?

Genesis 3:19 says In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This verse says for dust we are, and dust we will return, this on a very natural level talks about our origin, being of the earth, meaning we are created and came into being on the earth. However to take away any more doubt here is what Jesus says.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus Himself says He is from above, we are from below, we are of the world He is not of this world, why is this? Because we see in John 6:46 He is of God, we see in Philippians 2 that He came directly from the Father whom He is the only man to have seen, and cast aside His exalted position to lower Himself to take the form of us, however we are of the world, we have not seen the Father, we come from the Earth.

Jesus is utterly unique in His nature and is the only one who can claim to have come from and seen the Father, as He is from everlasting. (Micah 5:2) We are finite contingent beings, dependent on God for our existence and are by no means of the same nature of Jesus only born of our Spirit parents a little later.

The Glory of Christ.

This is another area where we dramatically see differences with the biblical and LDS view.

According to the LDS view Jesus was exalted as a result of His work on the earth and gained much more glory and status as a god as a result of what He did in His time on the earth.

10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this:

“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33)

 Jesus gained a fulness after His resurrection, this leads to a justifiable question, in that did Jesus actually sacrifice anything by coming to the earth then? Was it humility? This discussion in Shawn Mccraney’s book “I was a born again Mormon” illustrates this.

“Several years ago, a close friend who was LDS called me at my home to ask a question.

“All right,” he said rather abruptly, “Ive been thinking about this for a while, and I want to hear your views. What was the sacrifice of Jesus?”

“Other than his life?” I asked somewhat sarcastically.

“What was the sacrifice?” he repeated. “Describe it to me.”

This friend was not aware of my spiritual rebirth and was still under the impression that I subscribed to the LDS idea of Jesus. He had agreed, however, in a previous conversation that the true sacrifice must entail giving up something of greater value for something lesser, otherwise the exchange would simply be an opportunity.

“Well,” I replied, “I suppose in the LDS context of Jesus, there was none.”

“Exactly!” he excitedly replied. “Jesus came to earth and got a body just like us, right?”

“Right”

“And getting a body is a blessing, right?”

“According to the plan “yes.”

“So His coming to the earth waesn’t a sacrifice,” he concluded.

“And Jesus lived like all men live for most of His life, except He was able to avoid sin completely, right? Now that isn’t a sacrifice because we believe sin is never good, so by living without it, He only benefited himself, right?”

“Go on,” I said, excited to hear where this was going to end up.

“Then He begins his mission, right? Yes, He was without wealth, possessions, or a home; but this was only for a few years right?”

“Okay,” I replied with a laugh. “So the sacrifice was in His suffering and death for all humankind?”

“How can that be?” he snapped. “I agree that He suffered, but most of His mission was filled with people falling all over themselves to touch Him, hanging out with His friends and doing miracles. It was only at the end that He really endured the big-time pain.”

“But imagine the pain,” I interjected.

“I’m not claiming He didn’t suffer. He did. More than we will ever know and maybe in some dimension that we can’t explain. And I’m not saying He didn’t experience undeserved pain to boot. But tell me this, who wouldn’t go through all that suffering for a few days if they knew they would have all the glory, power, riches, and majesty forever and ever once the misery was over?”

And here we start to see the infinitely significant difference between the LDS view of Jesus and the biblical one. Look again at this passage in Philippians 2.

⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

⁸ And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.⁹ Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I am going to use this section as my argument for the biblical view, I will go through the underlined parts and explain what I am trying to say, referencing elsewhere as needed.

1, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Hold that thought on the form of God for the next point. In the second half of this we see that He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Imagine if I took some money from your pocket would that be robbery? Of course it would as it was not mine, but what if I took something that was mine.  See this scene from one of the best movies ever.

We see here Bruce Wayne getting caught in a supposed robbery, He says I am not a thief, the Policeman says tell that to the owner, who is the owner…..Its Bruce Wayne, did he commit robbery? No as it was His to take. Equality with God was in Jesus posession, He had to cast it aside to come to earth, this was not the start of a promotion process for Him.

 2, Took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Here is where we see another massive contrast with the LDS view of God the Father. According to the LDS view the Father has a body of flesh and bones as a result of His time as a man, however here we see a distinction between the form of God and the form of man.

Genesis 1:26-27 is one of they key places LDS theology draws its support for this view.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The LDS view is that if we are in Gods image then God must have a body of flesh and bones as we do. This makes sense on the surface but if you read straight after the image mention you see its according to His likeness. We are in His image according to His likeness. A key aspect of Gods character is rulership over all things. We see straight after we are told we are in His image according to likeness that we will rule over the animals of the earth.

We see this turned around later in Genesis 5:3

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

In the case of Adam having a son we see he is in his likeness after his image, the New American Standard Bible puts it like this ”his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.”

We see a reversal of how God made us, in His likeness according to His image, as they were of the same image.

Going back to Philippians 2 we see a clear distinction between the form of God and the form of man, here is a logical syllogism for this.

• Jesus before coming to earth existed in the form of God.
• When coming to earth He took the form of a bondservant – Man .
• Therefore Gods form is different to that of man’s.

3, He humbled Himself.

This has kind of been covered above now so I will quickly say that the Biblical Jesus humbled Himself casting aside His equality with God to take a lesser form to go through a totally undeserved punishment. The LDS Jesus had a god like status but knew that getting a body and living out His plan of salvation with the suffering and all else involved would lead to more glory and power and spiritual riches than He ever had before, this was a move that worked for His self interest as much as anything else.

4, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

And finally here is what is likely the LDS response would be to what I am saying, well Bobby here it is Jesus was highly exalted and given the name above every name, it goes on to say that every knee would bow before Him, so therefore Christ must be more glorious now.
This I would say is partly right, however there is a difference between Jesus receiving more glory and being more equal with God, and being more like God in His nature.

Hebrews 12:2 says

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The God of the bible is a God that always seeks first His own glory in all acts He carries out, this glory is the primary and most satisfying source of joy to God and He does everything that He does in order that it might please Him.

Ephesians 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God does what He does in us according to His good pleasure.

Isaiah 48:9-11 is where God gives the reason why He will not cut His constantly sinning people off.
9 For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

So where am I going with this? Jesus did what He did for the joy set before Him, what is that joy? It was the glory He would receive for Jesus is God in nature and equality so like the God of the Old Testament He acts for His glory. So therefore the Father happily gives Him this honour by giving Him the name above ALL names.

For us the name of Jesus is higher than all names, because it is only in the name of Jesus we can be saved (Acts 4:12) , and in honouring Jesus we are bringing glory to the Father, this is the Trinity fully at work. God the Spirit drawing people to Christ, the Father lifting up the Son and glorifying Him, to the glory of the Father.

So when Jesus is exalted and given this name above every name He is no more glorious in nature than before but totally glorified in His position before man as being the source of our salvation. So the joy that is set before Him is not His exaltation in nature but glory before man, that we might live in and enjoy this glory forever.

The Sufficiency of Christ.

So Jesus is totally God by nature and glory, so my final point bringing it back to us is that Christ is all we need eternally. As Gods joy is found in His glory so our joy eternally and in this life can be found in its fullness in His glory.

1 Peter 4:13 says

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

When His glory is revealed we shall be made glad with exceeding joy, this is our eternal occupation coming to light here, Jesus in John 17:24 says

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

As far as I am aware the Mormon take on verses like this and others that talk of us sharing in His glory to mean that we will receive an equivalent glory of our own, and this is what sharing in Christ’s glory means.

However look at this prayer, what is Christ’s hope here, that we get to enjoy our own kingdom as a result of our successful progression and exaltation, or that we are to enjoy His glory and sharing in His glory means actually we get to be partakers in His glory in the sense of we will be looking at and glorifying Him, and the sharing is that we actually get to be with Him forever. Jesus desire was that we might see His glory, that He had before He came to the earth, this also sounds like we had not seen this glory before. Which would further support the view that we did not have a pre-existence in heaven as Mormonism teaches.

Moving  on Revelation 7:9 says.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is the desire of God for His people, that we be with Him forever. In Philippians 1:21 Paul shares His desire to depart from this life and be with Christ as that is far better than living. A Mormons heart cry would be to stay longer and keep demonstrating by obeying the commandments that they might be worthy of receiving their exaltation, Paul just wanted to die and be with Christ , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says this:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will EVER be with the Lord, because He is sufficient for our eternity, nowhere do we see in the bible that we are to gain our own glory and exaltation and enjoy it with our family forever with Christ being the example of all we can achieve, there is in fact quite the opposite.

On a discussion online on facebook I saw these comments by an Ex-Mormon.

As a young man growing up in the church it was really hard for me at first to understand and except the role of Jesus. There was God the father and then there was Jesus my older Brother, who was also God some how because he was perfect.

Jesus got to play the part of God the Father in most of the stories in the scriptures, except when Jesus was actually here on Earth, then I guess the real God the Father had to play that part himself while Jesus was here on the Earth pretending to be one of us mortals.

I was a middle child groaning up. I had an older brother who seamed nearly perfect at times. He got strait As in school, excellent musician, great artist, never got in trouble, told funny jokes and seamed to excel at anything he tried. He seamed was much better that me at most things. He was highly favored by my parents and got many privileges. I loved and admired my older brother and was somewhat jealous of him.

Why would my older brother, Jesus would want me to worship him, kneel down before him, bath his feet with my tears and kiss his them. Please, no brother would want that. He already gets to be God with out having to come down to Earth to be tested first, like the rest of us do, now I have to worship him too and ask him to forgive my sins because I’m not “perfect” like he is. I’ll admit I had a few jealous issues with Jesus too, like I did with my other older brother.

Is Jesus our elder brother just like us but further on? Or is He God in the fullest and most glorious sense possible, with all we need to be saved and satisfied forever?

The Joy set before Christ was the glory that he held before with the Father, (John 17:5)  when He was already equal with the Father (Philippians 2:5-11)being revealed to His people (John 17:24) that we might enjoy it forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17), don’t miss out on this by seeing Christ as merely another man with an exalted status. He the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) not our brother.

What I want to do is show that Christians like me seeking to reach out to Mormons are doing first out of a reverence for God, and secondly out of a deep love for Mormons and desire to present to the truth of Christ they so need to hear.

As well as this I want to speak to Christians who maybe wonder why it is worth speaking to Mormons anyway, surely our time is better spent reaching people who have no knowledge of God.

So this post is divided into these sections.

• 1, Christians have a duty to respond to Mormonism as doing so upholds the greatness of God and declares His glory, in the face of teachings about Him that seek to make Him something lesser than He is.
• 2, If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible, then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.
• 3, If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

1, “As man is, God once was, as God is man may become” is a familiar quote that comes from Lorenzo snow an early Mormon president and captures the heart of the biggest problem of all in Mormonism, lets start with what the bible says about God.

Genesis 1:1-5

¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. ³ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. ⁴ God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. ⁵ God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born
Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within you.

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Isaiah 44:6-8 ⁶ “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:    ‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
⁷ ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place. ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”

Psalm 139:4-7 ⁴ Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.  ⁷ Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

So just from these few verses we see that God has been God forever, created all things just by speaking it into being, that He is the only God, that He is able to do more than we could ever imagine He could do, and He knows all things as well as everything we will do or think before we do it, this is the God of the bible. He is so glorious that we see here the reason why He made us.

Ephesians 1:5-6 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ⁶ to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Isaiah 43:6-7 “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
⁷ Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”

This God created is so that we might glorify Him, some people says thats arrogant but if you consider just how great this God is, you see that He is worthy of this praise and He has created us in such a way that our ultimate satisfaction comes from Him, going back to psalm 139 we see this:

Psalm 139:5-6 ⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

We see this heart from Paul also:

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ²² But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. ²³ But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

God wants us in the process of knowing Him, and glorifying Him to love it, He is the ultimate source of human satisfaction, looking anywhere else for our satisfaction, and turning our God given desire to worship anywhere else leaves us lost and unsatisfied and denies the God of the bible of His rightful worship.

So what does Mormonism say about God.

Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism in His most famous sermon, the King Follet discourse said this:

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

We see this in Mormon Scripture Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans”.

What we see in Momonism is a change from God being the eternal all powerful God to a man who was exalted into the position of godhood, he is one of potentially billions of gods and is the god of our planet. Mormon apologists overcome the accusation that Mormons are polytheists which means the belief in many gods to called themselves henotheists which is the belief in many gods but the worship of one, either way Gods declaration in Isaiah 44:8 that He knows of no other gods, raises a big question.

Joseph Smith also said: “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a Father? And where was there ever a Father without first being a son? (History of the Church, Volume 6, p.476)

As you might expect this leads to the implication that God was once a sinner like you and me, a friend of mine Aaron Shafovaloff in Utah has interviewed various Mormons on this subject, please take a look here.

So in Mormonism God becomes a man like us, subject to the same laws of creation that we are, just exalted to a higher position,  this leads to the other natural conclusion that must follow from this thinking that God in heaven is creating spirit children with His wife, the teaching in the Mormon church is that as well as a heavenly Father we have a heavenly Mother.

In 1845, after the murder of Joseph Smith, the poet Eliza Roxcy Snow, published a poem entitled My Father in Heaven, (later titled Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother, now used as the lyrics in the popular Latter-day Saint hymn O My Father), acknowledging the existence of a Heavenly Mother.^[11] This hymn contained the following language:

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I’ve a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

in your royal courts on high?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother_%28Mormonism%29)

There is no mention of ther Heavenly Mother in Mormon scripture that I know of, the most recent LDS authority quote comes from Gordon B Hinckley who was the Mormon prophet up to his death in 2008.

“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven” (Gordon Hinckley, “Daughters of God,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1991, p. 100. See also The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 257).

Logic and reason, this logic and reason that applies to humanity is here implied that is must apply to God, with Christianity God made us in His image, He made us like Him in aspects of His nature and goodness, however we see in the bible that He is far above us, has always been God and is the only God. Mormonism brings God down to being in our image and applies our limitations to Him, this is blasphemy at a very high level and as Christians we have a duty to uphold our Gods glory, and respond to this, not only that we might communicate the truth of God to Mormons, but that we might declare His glory.

On we go to point 2 which is If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.

What we believe about Jesus is absolutely essential to our salvation, if we get that wrong no matter how good our lives are, or how sincere we are then we are lost.

This is supported by Mormon Church owned, Brigham Young university (BYU)  Professor Jeffrey Marsh.

“There is no salvation in false doctrine, no redeeming power in misunderstanding about Jesus Christ, His divinity, nor His mission. As He declared, our ability to inherit eternal life is directly related to our understanding of Christ, and His doctrines (see 3 Nephi 27:15-17; John 17:3, 16-17)” (BYU Associate professor W. Jeffrey Marsh, “Doctrine of Christ restored to the world,” Church News, January 3, 2004, p. 6).

Jesus said unless you believe that I am He, you will be dead in your sins (John 8:24) this is reffering back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself to Moses as being I am that I am. Jesus is the I am, He is God, all of the attributes of God then apply to Him, meaning uncreated, creator, we see this in Phillipians 2:1-10

 ¹ Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, ² make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. ³ Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; ⁴ do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. ⁵ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. ⁹ For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, ¹⁰ so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Jesus in very nature with God did not grasp His equality with God but emptied Himself to be a man taking death for us,  we see this in John 17:5.

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The glory which Jesus gets in Philippians 2:9-10 is not some reward for living out His plan of salvation which is what the Mormon church teaches, but a restoration of the glory He had before He came to the earth.

The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus was the first spirit child to be born to His heavenly parents in Heaven and when there was a council in heaven of the gods deciding ho should be the saviour Jesus and His spirit brother Lucifer also born to these parents came up with their ideas. Jesus idea was chosen Lucifer and His followers, now demons rebelled and were cast down to hell.

Jesus came to earth and while taking the price for us He was also living ut His wn plan of salvation, thus this glorification He recieved after that in Mormon theology was His exaltation which was a reward for Him for doing so good on the earth, Jesus needed to get a body and do this whether He was the saviour or not.

6th Mormon Prophet Joseph f Smith said this:

“Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153).

10th Mormon Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).

The difference between us and Jesus, is that Jesus was the firstborn in heaven and so had the status of being a god right from the start, just coming to earth and doing what He did exalted Him further. Bruce Mckonkie a previous Mormon Apostle said this:

“Christ stands preeminent among all the spirit children of the Father. While yet in preexistence he became ‘like unto God’” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pp. 442-443).

This leads to the question where is the humility in Philippians 2? If Jesus coming to erth and dying for us actually led to greater glory for Himself why is this described in Philippians 2 as humility, letting go of His equaity with God and coming to earth as a man? This is what Mormonism misses, Jesus was fully God, glorious, eternal, creator everything that God is, before He came to earth and after, yet again Mormonism here brings down God to being subject to a humans reasoing and limitations, if we have to live out a plan of salvation so does Christ.

As a side note the Mormon church also teaches that the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost as they call Him will also one day have to come to earth in a body and live out His plan of salvation.

Joseph Smith said that, “The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

So we see that the Christ Mormonism believes in is not the Jesus of the bible, the Jesus of the bible stepped down in coming to earth and gave Himself for us, the Jesus of Mormonism actually earned His exaltation through coming to the earth and ultimately was exalted for His work on the cross and in gethsemane. Yet again we as Christians must speak up against this when we have the opportunity too, for the sake of the salvaion of Mormons and the glory of God.

Ok final point. If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

So a Mormons goal ultimately is to live out all of the laws and ordnances of the Mormon gospel so that they might recieve the same exaltation that their heavenly Father did.

Joseph Smith said:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348.  See also Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 305).

Current Mormon Prophet Thomas Monson said

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 56).

And how are they earned?

“The Celestial inheritance is for those who have accepted the Gospel of Christ and have rendered valiant service in the cause of righteousness; those who have yielded obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 287).

Thats right all of them, and here they are:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–

1. Love and worship God.

2. Love our neighbor.

3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

4. Live the law of chastity.

5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.

6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

7. Speak the truth always.

8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.

9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

13. Have family and individual prayers every day.

14. Honor our parents.

15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

16. Study the scriptures.

17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

(http://defendingcontending.com/2007/12/10/requirements-for-mormon-salvation/)

All of these must be obeyed for exaltation, which for Mormon is the fullest meaning of salvation. Mormons that seek to be in good standing and obey these have a life of pressure and expectation. The The Mormon church owned newspaper Deseret News identified in 2007 that Utah a state that is 68% Mormon has the highest rate of depression in the USA (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695231614/Utah-leads-the-nation-in-rates-of-depression.html)

This article put together in the last month shows that More people in Utah think about killing themselves than anywhere else in the United States.

Can we honestly think the pressures of Mormonism has nothing to do with this?

Yet again what does the bible say:

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Compare that to the big list, if you do not work but trust Jesus you are righteouss, this righteousness is all you need to be acceptable to God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ⁹ not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Salvation is a work of Christ of His grace. We are supposed to be free from burden by knowing Christ not immersed in it. Does this mean Christianity teaches we can be saved and do nothing? In a sense yes as none of our works save us, however as the ephesians 2 quote above says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, so when we are saved God has plans for us and things for us to do, however these are works of love that comes from having from having the love of  Christ in us. Not works that a slavemaster requires of us if we want to earn big rewards.

Thats the difference between following Christ and Religion, His burden is light, religions burden is ever increasing in weight.

So if your a Christian reading this please remember this the next time you meet a Mormon, they are fantastic people subject to a religion that puts much pressure on them for something Christ would love to give them if they would only trust Him, tell them about Him.

If your a Mormon reading this please understand that my motives and the motives of others like me is not hate or a desire to tear down, but love and a desire to show you how great Christ is and how much He loves you and has for you. Even if you disagree with what I have said which you likely will, I want you to understand the heart behind this ministry.

As ever please leave your thoughts.