Some of you may remember a while ago we had Ned Scharisbrick from the FairMormon Podcast do an episode responding to some articles on this blog. This was a great chance to have some online communication with Ned. In the process of this he very kindly offered to have me go on his podcast and have some dialogue with him. Ned runs an episode called the 4th watch, looking out for challenges and criticisms of the Mormon faith.

For those who dont know Fair is the Foundation for Apologetics information and Research and is one of the main organizations defending Mormonism from a faithful LDS perspective.

Well this week that episode went online on the Fairblog Podcast. You can find the episode here, or listen on the audio file below.

Bobby on the Fairblog podcast.

I very much appreciated Ned having me on, and I think this was a good example of respectful dialogue. I will let the episode speak for itself rather than offering some commentary on it myself, but we discussed the issue of what does it mean to be saved.

One thing I would say is in the introduction to the episode text it says this:

Mr. Gilpen comes from the evangelical Calvinist tradition of Christianity and the term ‘anti’ may come across as disrespectful to those who are actually kind to members of the LDS Church.  The term anti in this discussion is used to represent those who are against or openly opposed to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, much as the term “pro” could be used for those who agree with or openly promote the teachings of the LDS Church.

I appreciate the explanation of what Anti-Mormon means here but I am still sad to see this used, I think it would be much more helpful if those engaged in LDS Apologetics start to publically state the difference between those that are LDS Critics and Anti-Mormons. As many Mormons maybe even to this episode will switch off when they see this term. Anti-Mormons in the mind of many Mormons refers to people who are opposed to them as people and are to be avoided, this is by no means what I am, and I think Ned does appreciate this.

However again all of that said I very much appreciate Ned having me on and I look forward to any comments that may come.

Hey there all. As many who have been reading this blog for a while will know, I have been to Utah on mission trips for 3 years running between 2010 and 2012. These have been seriously some of the best times of my life. I have been on a daily basis actively involved in reaching out to LDS people as well as meeting, training and connecting with various Christians from Utah and other parts of the USA. My main contact is Russ East from Utah Partnerships for Christ.

Russ runs a ministry hosting mission trips from all over America and the world seeking to reach out to the residents of Utah. On every visit I have stayed and worked with Russ, being involved with outreach at Temple Square in Salt Lake City and also the Manti Miracle Pageant, where each night 14,000 Mormons come and watch a re-enactment of their theology and believed history, here is a discussion I had there.

As well as reaching out to Mormons on my last trip I was also involved with training and equipping Christians. Here I am giving some guys a tour of temple square.

During these visits I have also been on Heart of the Matter with Shawn Mccraney twice, here is one of my appearances at the end of this video.

So what is my point in all this? Well I want to go back to Utah, every year from 2014 onwards. In fact my wife Vicky and I are in genuine hope and prayer that one day in the next 5 years or so we want to move to and live in Utah. However these trips are expensive and so this post is an unashamed request, that you would consider supporting me to go to Utah on a mission trip in 2014.

For this trip I plan to:

• Be very active in outreach to LDS people in Utah, particularly at the Manti Miracle Pageant.
• Make contact with local Christian Churches in Utah, seeking to build relationships and raise support for a permanent Utah move.
• Build relationships with Key Christians in Utah already active in evangelism to LDS people.
• Report back to you on what is going on and keeping you up to date in all that you are supporting me to do over there.

This is your chance to have an active impact on LDS people not only in the UK but around the world. Please prayerfully consider supporting me for this trip. Anything you contribute however big or small with be massively significant in helping me to make this trip. I estimate I need to raise around £1000 to go for around two weeks. You can contribute by emailing me on [email protected] for info, You can also give via paypal by clicking here. Or by clicking the paypal button below.

Thank you for reading, more updates on this to follow.

Following the peaceful and successful Christian witness at the Mormon British Pageant held at the Mormon temple in Lancashire (right) and led by this ministry (see previous posts for reports) the inevitable and inevitably amateur response has appeared on the internet.

The usual name-calling has been going on, one favourite being “protesters,” which brought a smile to the faces of happy Christians peacefully engaging Mormons in conversation and handing out literature to passers-by. The inevitable, “anti-Mormon” label came out of course and I want to share some thoughts about that.

The Oct. 1997 issue of the liberal Mormon Sunstone magazine (Vol. 20:3, Issue 107) carried an amusing article about alternative names for “Anti-Mormons.” (Thanks to Vince for drawing this list to my attention. Comments in brackets are my own, of course)

Sceptics (And this is a bad thing because…?)

Gentiles (Mormons consider themselves the new Israel)

Mormon-detractors

Counter-Mormons (That’s anti-Mormons to the rest of us)

Anti-Christs (At least we know now what Mormons think of honest critics)

Mormophobes (It isn’t an irrational fear but a healthy scepticism – see 1 above)

Nehors (Nehor is an obscure Book of Mormon character who led an apostate sect)

Avatars of Satan (An avatar is an incarnation of a deity; see comment on temple “minister” below)

Challengers (Fair comment. So stop name-calling and meet the challenge)

The unconverted (Christians? Unconverted? Interesting insight)

Contra-Mormons (pro-Christians)

Post-Mormons (Thank goodness that’s behind us then)

Unwashed heathens (Lets not dignify that…)

Ignorant fools (Mt.5:22)

Tannerites (Sandra Tanner and her late husband Jerald, former Mormons, are the most influential critics of Mormonism in the 20^th century)

O Benighted Ones (We are getting into the realms of Twilight here, surely)

Dysfunctional pseudo-Christians (Pardon me? I can dress myself)

Friends of other faiths (FOOFS) (To Mormons other churches are “other faiths,” a telling fact since churches are Christian so what does that make Mormonism except “another faith?” Gal.1:8-9)

Friends of opposing lifestyles (FOOLS) (See Mt.5:22 again)

Patrons of opposing philosophies (POOPS) (snigger)

Acquaintances of negative theological interests (ANTIs)

The Gentile Liberation Front (see 2 above)

CsOTMC (Critics of the Mormon Church) (I can live with that)

Objectivity-challenged Mormon commentators

and, “persons in straw hats who sit upon lawn chairs in the full sun all day long and distribute perversely negative literature about the LDS church at the exits of parking lots of LDS temple open houses, who are otherwise harmless…” (I have never owned a lawn chair in my life, although I do have a straw hat)

Childish, isn’t it? And, of course, you can’t ascribe this sort of infantile nonsense to every Mormon you meet. On the other hand, it is not entirely atypical. If this kind of “critical” response was put on a spectrum most, if not all Mormons would fit on it somewhere.

The Mormon Great Game

Typical of the response of Mormons to criticism is to attempt to isolate critics from the mainstream of Christian thought and even civilised society. This is done by labelling critics “anti-Mormon,” defining them in terms of their relationship to Mormonism rather than by their faith, and ascribing to them base motives far removed from those of true, good-hearted Christians.

Mormonism’s critics are portrayed as holding to beliefs that are peculiar even to other Christians, as having problems with Mormon theology that most other Christians would not have. There is a history to this kind of approach, represented by such Mormon books as Offenders for a Word, How Wide the Divide and Are Mormons Christians?

Further, in an attempt to legitimise theology that is peculiar to Mormonism, and alien to historical, orthodox Christianity, Mormons seek first to redefine what are often settled issues for the Christian Church; the nature of God, the nature of man, the person of Jesus, the nature of sin, the significance of the cross, the means of grace and salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit, the reliability of the Bible and the eternal destiny of the saints.

This way they create something more in their own image and call it Christianity. They then compare the views of Christian apologists looking critically at Mormonism with this chimera and represent these apologists as though they are out on a limb as far as most Christians are concerned. I call this the Mormon Great Game.

Christian, Evangelical and Biblical

Anyone reading literature produced by Christian critics of Mormonism, indeed reading this blog, will readily see that these thoughtful critics usually stand squarely within the Evangelical Christian tradition when it comes to doctrine. In challenging Mormon thought they represent accurately the problems most Christians would have with Mormon theology.

Christians would have real problems with the Mormon teaching that God is an exalted man, Jesus his literal physical Son; man an eternal being; sin something we pick up from influences around us; the cross simply the place where Jesus died; salvation as something you earn; the Spirit one of three distinct gods; the Bible as unreliable and godhood the ultimate goal for every believer deemed “worthy” of exaltation. All Mormon teachings, none squaring with historical, orthodox Christianity.

According to the official Mormon web site, there are over seventy thousand full-time Mormon missionaries around the world today, as well as the almost 15million ‘lay members’ to whom the aphorism “every member a missionary” applies (For more on how Mormon demographics don’t add up see the Mormon Chapbook). They are calling on our neighbours with their message of families, temples, extra-biblical revelation and the rest, and insist that, unlike their detractors, they are simply proclaiming their message and sharing what they believe.

Mormons; Tearing Down the Walls

However, in “teaching what [they] believe to be the teachings of Jesus Christ”, as one correspondent insisted, they do not themselves simply present their view. Their message is grounded in the doctrine that all other churches are in apostasy; their creeds an abomination, believers corrupt, their practices ungodly and their ministers without authority (Joseph Smith, History 1:19).

The first lesson given by Mormon missionaries emphasises the corrupt, apostate nature of Christian churches. Mormonism is presented immediately as a restoration of truth and authority “after centuries of spiritual darkness.” An integral part of their message is an attack on established Christian churches; tearing down the walls of established truth.

In light of this, I suggest their familiar cry, “why do you have to tear down other people’s beliefs?” is breathtakingly disingenuous. In presenting Mormonism, they inevitably tear down the faith of Bible-believing Christians everywhere. If we are “anti-Mormon” what does that make them?

Many Mormon books have been written about, and web pages dedicated to, the defence of Mormonism against those who criticise it. There are also publications ‘correcting’, in light of Mormon beliefs, ‘apostate’ Christian beliefs and practices and educating people in the ‘restored’ Mormon gospel. All of them compare Christianity unfavourably with Mormonism.

The Book of Mormon Starts the Game

The Book of Mormon, said by Joseph Smith to be, “the cornerstone of our faith,” itself is scathing in its attack on the Christian Church, “predicting” a universal apostasy and condemning Christian churches in the strongest terms:

1 Nephi 13

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book [the Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God…

…26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away…

…28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

But these plain and precious truths, lost through the corruption of the great and abominable church, would be restored:

35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious [The Book of Mormon]; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb [through Joseph Smith]….

…38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren [the Lamanites, or American Indians].

39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records [The Book of Mormon], which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first [The Bible], which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. (Words in square brackets added)

Mormon Leaders Play the Game

Mormon leaders have, over the years, been scathing about the churches. In this same section of the Book of Mormon the writer goes on to talk about “the great and abominable church [being] the mother of harlots” Mormon apostle, Bruce R McConkie commented:

“Speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he (Nephi) designated the Catholic Church as ‘the mother of harlots’ (I Ne.13:34; 14:15-17) a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp.314-315)

Now doubt there about where Mormonism stands in relation to the Christian churches. Speaking in 1893 the Mormon prophet John Taylor said:

We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbol (sic); it is as corrupt as hell; and the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century” (Journal of Discourses, vol.6 p 167)

Mormons Play the Game in Secret

Up until 1990 the Mormon temple endowment ceremony portrayed a Christian minister as in the pay of the devil! He was made to look corrupt because he preached for money (see Luke 10:7; 1 Cor.9:7-12 esp.v11); His message of an invisible God “so great he can fill the universe, ye so small he can dwell in your heart” (a grotesque caricature) was mocked mercilessly. This portrayal was only removed after strong and repeated protests from outraged Christians and some Mormons who felt increasingly uncomfortable with it.

If Mormons are permitted to ‘apologise’ for, defend and spread their views by casting Christianity in such a poor light I fail to see any justification for Mormon complaints about works that closely and critically examine Mormonism. We might justifiably claim to be simply defending our own faith against Mormon critics calling at our doors. Instead of manufacturing labels for honest critics I suggest they should use their time and energy bringing honest answers to honest questions. Anti-Mormon? I don’t think so.

Well I got a surprise a few days ago. I got up and checked my email and I got my update on what the Foundation for Apologetic information and research (Fairlds.org) podcast was for the week, and it was a response to some articles on this site, hosted by. Ned Scarisbrick. You can find it here. Fair is one of the main Mormon Apologetics organizations.

This is certainly a first for me. Ned seems like a nice guy and made some comments on 4 articles on this blog. Of course we are referred to as “Anti-Mormon” or at least, not pro-Mormon. I will have to do an article on what is an Anti-Mormon sometime. Does anyone know of any articles out there that properly define this?

The first article he looks at is found at CTRJesus.com this was wrote by me (Bobby).

Ned starts his critique of my article by repeating this quote from 10th LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith that was found on the post.

“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Sav- ior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33). 

In my article my conclusion to the above quote is:

In Mormonism Jesus is another one of us. Just elevated initially because He was the firstborn of our heavenly parents. He had to go through the same plan of salvation that we all do, so that then what was lacking in Him could be made complete. This is not the Jesus of the Bible. This is actually not humility.

Neds response to this is:

 “no, no, no”. Its the same Jesus. He is not just elevated initially because He was the firstborn of our heavenly parents.” (3:25)

So there are two points Ned is appearing to make there, First point is that Mormons follow the same Jesus. Same Jesus as who? Is something I have to ask, Mormon authorities have clearly stated in times past that the Mormon Church follows a different Jesus to the rest of the Christian world, consider these quotes:

“As a church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some sub- stance to what they say” (Gordon Hinckley, 15th Mormon President, “We look to Christ,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2002, p. 90).

Also in Ensign the Official Mormon Magazine we see this:

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1977, p. 26).

I think further clarification on what Ned meant by the same Jesus would have helped there, as if He is saying that we are following the same Jesus as each other, His Church would appear to disagree.

The Second point Ned makes here is that “Jesus was not elevated initially because He was the first born of our Heavenly parents.” This is puzzling to me as I though this was fairly standard teaching in the LDS Church, consider these quotes.

BYU Professor and well known LDS Author Robert Millet said.

“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons and daughters of the Father” (BYU Professor Robert L. Millet, A Different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, p. 20).

Is it not the case in Mormonism that we all if you go far back enough we were all “intelligence’s” waiting for our chance to gain a spirit body, then a physical body and hopefully then exaltation. Brigham Roberts a past Mormon general authority said:

“But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an end-less line of Divine Intelligences—Deities, stretching back into the eternities, that had no beginning and will have no end. Their existence runs parallel with endless duration, and their dominions are as limitless as boundless space” (B.H. Roberts, New Witness for God 1:466).

This applies to Christ and Heavenly Father as much as anyone, there is also no end of material like my original quote that Ned mentioned, showing that Jesus had to go through the same plan of salvation that we all do, he just did it from an already elevated position, nonetheless He still had to prove Himself worthy of exaltation like all of us.

“Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understand- ing through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws” (Milton R. Hunter, of the 70, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 51).

“Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a ful- ness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, (6th Mormon President) p. 153)

I think we needed more from Ned than just No, no, no here.

Ned then goes on to agree with me on John 8:24, but then disagrees with this statement.

Or is He your elder brother, simply going through the same plan of salvation you are, and may one day be your equal, depending on how you live your life?

Again we get “no, no, no”. Lets dig a little further here. Past Mormon President George A Smith said.

“We are living eternal life, and our position hereafter will be the result of our lives here. Every man will be judged according to his works, and he will receive only that degree of glory that he has earned. (Conference Reports, April 1945, p. 139.)” (The Teachings of George Albert Smith, p. 30).

Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism said:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348. Italics in original. See also Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 305).

So what is the top? I would concede that I am not aware of a statement from Mormon leaders that say we can one day be as great as Christ. However the implication is there, universal laws, (as in they apply to everyone) and a plan of salvation that is the same for all. The implication here is that there is nothing held back from us that was not held back from Christ. I have had a Mormon Missionary tell me that he believed one day he might be as great as Christ. While Mormon Missionaries are by no means experts on all things Mormon doctrine, it still shows this is a conclusion that naturally follows from this teaching.

Its worth pointing out here that this blog and ministry is not interested in going after Mormon Doctrine as such, I have heard Mormons say that pinning down Mormon Doctrine is like nailing Jelly to a wall, it cant be done. Ned even says at the start of his article that his views are not necessarily that of the Church or even that of the organization (Fairlds.org) that he is doing the podcast for.

Many Mormons may actually disagree with what Ned said, even before you get on to what I say.  Mormons when doing anything public usually make similar disclaimers. Over the years Mormon “Prophets” and Apostles” have made various statements some of which the church would like to forget, however depending on which leader an LDS individual may subscribe to, can lead to a diversity of views.

So I would say the same, my views may not perfectly represent that of what the Mormon Church teaches, but I certainly represent what many Mormons do think, and its members of the LDS Church that I am trying to connect with, rather than the actual Church itself.

Moving on Ned picks up on this point that I made in my post.

Jesus said all power is given to ME therefore go! Do you want to know why you NEVER see a Priesthood blessing referenced in the New Testament? Its because its not the power or authority of the priesthood that the Church needs, but rather it is the power and authority of Jesus.

Ned uses this verse to disprove what I said:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Ned is adding an LDS worldview to the word ordained here. Firstly there is still no mention directly of a Priesthood blessing, my point very much stands. Secondly the word ordained here in the greek is “eqhka”  which is actually better translated as “appointed”, this is simply saying that Jesus has appointed Peter to bear fruit, there is no mention here of any “Aaronic” or “Melchizedek” priesthood being bestowed.

Earlier in the chapter we see the same thing being talked about regarding all that are in Christ.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Again my point stands, its being in Christ that brings your authority, not any church ordnance.

Finally Ned picks up on my conclusion

Do you know this Jesus? Has He saved you to the uttermost? Is His authority in you? Do you look to Him for all you need or is it found in an organization? The answer will affect your eternity.

Ned then says the institution of the church is not the gospel, but rather a tool the Lord uses on the earth. He does concede that some become so institutionalized that they lose track of this.

My experience as I imagine many others is with Mormons, is that when they talk about being converted they say “I was converted to the Church….” I see this all the time. One example that really comes to mind is a talk done by a member of the 70 called Elder Poelman in 1984.

He made some points that support Neds argument here well:

• 1, Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine. However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.
• 2, Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme cases disaffections.
• 3, Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.

However if you go to LDS.org today you will see these points instead.

• 1, Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine, and there is an essential relationship between them that is significant and very important.
• 2, Understanding the proper relationship between the gospel and the Church will prevent confusion, misplaced priorities, and failed expectations and will lead to the realization of gospel goals through happy, fulfilling participation in the Church. Such understanding will avoid possible disaffection and will result in great personal blessings.
• 3, The eternal principles of the gospel implemented through the divinely inspired Church apply to a wide variety of individuals in diverse cultures.

Elder Poelman after giving this talk with the great points made above was then made to go back to the conference hall, with no audience apart from some machines making coughing noises, to give another talk, with the second round of points that clearly show that the Church is actually more essential than Elder Poelman first stated. For my article on this issue go here.

Mormon Apostle Bruce Mcconkie said:

“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

More responses to this podcast to follow.

Well the third night came and went with a few chats, but mostly quite quiet. I tried doing the Jesus Survey that you can find at TriGrace ministries and found that to be very good. It really helps show the significant differences between what Jesus taught and the LDS Church teaches.

Despite it being quiet it was great to see the positive connection we were building with some of the LDS people. During the day myself and Jason Thickpenny met up with a couple of LDS missionaries in Chorley Town centre and we were able to explain more why we are doing this. Not out of any hatred towards Mormons but just out of a desire to explain the Biblical gospel to them, naturally they disagreed but we had a chance to share the gospel and they said they understood and respected why we were doing what we were doing.

On the 4th day (sat 3rd) we got up at 5am and went straight to Leeds to do the same thing at a Jehovah’s Witness Convention. This made witnessing at the Mormon Pageant seem so nice and easy in comparison. There was apparently 6.500 people there.

Jason Thickpenny an ex Witness did some preaching to the witnesses on the fact that the Biblical teaching on the Nature and sufficiency of Jesus being so different to the Jehovah’s Witness teachings.

For me and others we mostly held up some signs, in the hope that this would get them thinking.

On this same day one of the sessions at this convention was teaching the attendees that Apostates are mentally diseased and dine with Satan. It was clear that for many of them this very clearly included us. I was able to have discussion with someone going through the early studies to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was able to challenge him on issues such as false prophecies and the fact that the organization teaches that salvation is only found with them. Naturally he was not aware of this, please pray that he makes contact with me or looks this stuff up.

Then that night we came back (being very tired) and got back out to the Pageant. This was a much better night, for me it brought the most discussions of the week, I think this was the case for others too.

We have also created two websites in connection with this outreach. http://www.CTRJesus.com and http://www.miracleofforgiveness.com here is Lucy trying to get people to look at one of them.

As well on this night I was able to speak to one of the organizers of the event. I think for the first time all week I got into a discussion with him about Joseph Smith and some of the issues raised by him. One of them was the translation process of the Book of Mormon. It seemed this guy was convinced as are many other LDS that this is how that process worked

For the most part I think the LDS church has communicated to its members that the plates were present and Joseph using a urrim and thummim dictated the words from the plates. The reality is however very different, Joseph put his head in his hat with the same seer stone he (unsuccessfully) attempted to find treasure with and dictated the supposed translation from there. I told this guy that this had previously been shown in an Ensign magazine, he did not believe this, in case he or any others are interested here it is.

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.” ¹¹

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god

More on this here http://www.mrm.org/translation

So anyway all in all this has been a seriously great week of witnessing. I think we have built a good relationship with many of the event organizers and volunteers and despite the fact that they (i am sure) would rather not have us there, I think they appreciate that we are there out of genuine concern for them, with no desire to cause trouble or “protest”.

I am now back home and all done but there are still others there for the 2nd week. Please pray for these guys and if you are going along please say hi.

Hey all, some of you may have noticed me linking to Russ Bale’s  interview by Suzanne Witt the other day on why he reaches out to Mormons.

Yesterday I was also interviewed by Suzanne on why I do this, please see that interview above. I thought this would be helpful as this is a question I am often asked, and so often I think Mormons assume its out of some hatred on my part towards Mormons, of even the Mormon Church.

Please give this interview a listen and I hope you will see this is not the case. You may not agree with my conclusions, but I hope in the least you will see that my motivation is not in anyway a negative thing.

As ever I am open and looking forward to your comments.

Hey all you may have seen that I was speaking at the Apologetics in Manchester Event recently, on the issue of reaching out to Mormons. For those that missed it and might have liked to have heard it please check out the audio below.

Also our very own Tony Brown is speaking there on the 11th May at 10am on Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you would like more information on this please let me know.

This was a particularly good day. After the event a few of us went out for lunch. Just minutes after we sat down two Mormon Missionaries walked in. We invited them to join us and had a great time. Funny how these things work out.

Hi all we had a great day on the 19th looking at the upcoming Mormon  Pageant in Chorley and the great outreach opportunity that this will be. This ministry is unashamedly open in the fact that we intend on being there in July/August to have as many witnessing encounters with Mormons as possible. We will not be there with banners saying “Mormonism is a Cult” (though we cant account for whoever else might turn up) but rather we will seek to lovingly share Jesus in light of the unbiblical teachings of Mormonism.

Anyway you may have noticed the invite to the training day on the 19th of January. For those who didnt make it, particularly understandable with the weather on the day, we have the talks given below on video and audio (right click and save target as to download the audios), please enjoy and let me know on [email protected] or comment below if you would like to be involved or you have any comments and questions on this.

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 1

British Mormon Pageant Training Audio Part 2

The British Mormon Pageant evangelism training audio Part 3

British Mormon Pageant Evangelism Training Audio part 4

Hi all here is the audio of a conversation I had with a Mormon when in Manti, Utah this year, we cover a lot of areas, please give it a listen and leave any thoughts.

Conversation with a Mormon at Manti

(left click to listen, right click, save link as to download)

Well its that time in general conference when the men meet together and are given specific teaching and council for them. This is a session I always find particularly interesting as often the teaching can be more blunt and to the point as the Authorities are speaking into the people who ultimately are the future and present leaders of this Church. I will go through the talks one by one with some thoughts and then give some overview thoughts at the end.

Brethren, We Have Work to Do
BY ELDER D. TODD CHRISTOFFERSON
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

If there is one theme that seems to be pressed in this session more than any other at general conference it is work. As the title suggests this talk gets started with that very much in mind.

The speaker here spends the full talk laying out all of the ways that men need to step up. Looking at things such as the rise in females doing well in education, how in the media men seem to be portrayed as incompetent, immature and self absorbed, and how women are starting to see men as simply partners rather than strong men that they can look to.

We as men should provide leadership, men with the Priesthood (which is the authority by which man act for God in the LDS church) should not waste their life on pornography and cyber space.

Elder Christofferson gives a challenging example of a young boy in India who has two jobs helping to keep his household going at such a young age while still being educated. He says “young men you have no time to waste”. This is now even more true in the Mormon church with the lowering of the missionary age to 18 for guys and 19 for girls.

And he ends with saying that this all needs to be done most importantly in the home, quoting Doctrine and Covenants he says: . Begin to act, and the Lord assures that “an effectual door shall be opened for [you]” (D&C 118:3).

I would say in this talk there are some good points, Biblically men are to take a lead and on a practical level I can agree with what has been said here. There is nothing really doctrinal said for me to take issue with. I would say what concerned me is that there was very little mention of Jesus. In fact doing a word search of this talk for the word “Lord”, I found that almost every reference here about the “Lord” (which I assume does mean Jesus) it is talking about serving Him, either in us needing to serve Him or Him helping us serve Him. I got the sense that He was the vehicle by whom we do things that help better our lives, rather than Him and His glory being the end goal for the doing of these things. I will unpack this more as the talks go on.

Be Valiant in Courage, Strength, and Activity
BY BISHOP GARY E. STEVENSON

This is a talk speaking specifically to the young men in the Church. He tells a story of some young men who walked away from a party where people were taking drugs and narrowly missed being arrested when the Police raided that party after they left. Those that stayed at the party even though some of them took no drugs were kicked out of their school in Japan and sent home. Those that walked away went on to prosperous good lives.

He said this:

Young men, I promise the Lord will empower you. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power.”7 He will reward you for your courage and righteous behavior—with happiness and joy. Such courage will be a by product of your faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, your prayers, and your obedience to commandments.

Its all about choosing the right and following the commandments, this talk again is full of some good principles but very much makes the point that life will turn out good if we behave righteously.

Beware Concerning Yourselves
BY ELDER ANTHONY D. PERKINS Of the Seventy

This talk is aimed more at the older Teenagers and beyond who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. This talk as the title suggests is a warning against going wrong. There were two particular things that caught my attention here.

He said this:

Why would God command us to beware? He knows that Satan is an actual being who seeks to drag down our souls into the gulf of misery. God also knows that lurking within priesthood holders is a “natural man” “prone to wander.” Thus, prophets invite us to “put off the old man” and “put on Christ” through faith, repentance, saving ordinances, and daily gospel living.

I wonder when I see this, why does he have to say to people in the Church who already hold this higher priesthood that they should have to put off the old man as though this man is still there, that the natural man is still lurking within these Mormons.

Biblically we see that anyone that that is in Christ IS a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), not that they should hope to be one.

Colossians 3:9 says Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Here we see Paul say that we (meaning Christians) have put off the old man in the past tense, this is not something we are striving to do but rather something that is done. Colossians 3:10 goes on to say “and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him”

This renewing is not a work of us but rather a work in us by God as a resulting of us being born again (or regenerated) by Him.

Ezekiel 36:27 says: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Success in the Christian life is not down to us constantly trying harder but rather down to us trusting in Christ and having Him work within us, for many of us that’s a process that can take time but its not down to our efforts to put off the old self and behave righteously in order to be what God wants. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Saving ordnances are not what do it but rather His work in us.

Another part of this talk that really interested me was this:

The Old Testament story of David is a tragic example of squandered priesthood power. Although he defeated Goliath while young and lived righteously for decades, this prophet-king was still spiritually vulnerable. In that crucial moment when from his rooftop he saw beautiful Bathsheba bathing, no moral lifeguard stood near to shout, “Beware, David, you fool!” His failure to beware concerning himself11 and to act on promptings of the Spirit12 led to the loss of his eternal family.13

Brethren, if even mighty David can be swept off the road to exaltation, how can we avoid a similar fate?

Firstly David held no Priesthood, and was by no means a Priest, this is simply the Mormon Church adding their perspective onto a place where it is not there, however what interested me more was that he lost His exaltation as a result of His adultery and more importantly murder. This is a teaching that goes far back in Mormonism. And ultimately the Mormon church teaches that David is in Spirit Prison today. Here are two videos that deal with this issue, I would very much recommend you give them a watch,

The Joy of the Priesthood
BY PRESIDENT DIETER F. UCHTDORF
Second Counselor in the First Presidency

Ok moving on to pretty much everyone’s favourite general Authority Dieter Uchtdorf, this guy is always a pleasure to listen to and is someone I would love to give a hug too as much as tell him I think he is wrong. He started off as he often does telling a story of his days as a pilot and talks about how basically some planes are fast, some are slow, just as some people listening are in busy wards (Mormon local Churches) and some are in quiet ones with hardly anyone there which can see less exciting. Both have equal significance. This is a good analogy and is something people could take for many situations, I see nothing to critique in this story.

Two things in this talk struck out at me,

Our all-powerful Father in Heaven has entrusted priesthood authority to us—mortal beings who, by definition, are flawed and imperfect. He grants to us the authority to act in His name for the salvation of His children. By this great power we are authorized to preach the gospel, administer the ordinances of salvation, help build the kingdom of God on the earth, and bless and serve our families and our fellowmen.

Jesus said in the great Commission all authority has been given to Me therefore go……. Now I appreciate the LDS perspective does not grant that Jesus was saying this to all believers from that point on (however that leaves the problem of Jesus claiming to be with this people till the end of the age) however Jesus still made the point that all authority has been given to ME therefore go. Why didn’t he say its been give to you priesthood holders now go out there and choose the right and stay faithful etc like Mormon leaders do?

Its through being in Christ that we have our authority and power, John came to Jesus and said this:

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

You can imagine a young Mormon Priesthood holder coming to Jesus and saying “I saw someone preaching the gospel without the Priesthood, I stopped them!”

Yet Jesus says:

Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Its not about being in a specific organization and following their ways its about being connected to Christ, in Him we are a new creation equipped and empowered by His spirit to tell all others about Him.

The closing words of this talk raise the same concerns as its title.

That we may always have eyes to see and a heart to feel the wonder and joy of the priesthood of our great and mighty God is my prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

What did the Apostle Paul say:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Where is the Priesthood there Paul? And why is Jesus mentioned so little in this whole session?

Help Them Aim High
BY PRESIDENT HENRY B. EYRING
First Counselor in the First Presidency

This talk was largely devoted to some great times that President Eyring has had with his son, they were good examples but again all tailored around the significance of this Priesthood with Christ getting no where near the same emphasis. He made one point which really interested me.

As a father I was blessed to see great futures in God’s kingdom for my daughters as well as my sons. When I prayerfully sought guidance, I was shown a way to help my daughters recognize the trust God had placed in them as servants who could build His kingdom.

In a lot of ways this talk and this session strike me as kind of religious humanism. They are all about us striving, us doing, us performing, us improving, without giving us that biblical formula of just how hopeless we are without Christs work in us that comes through faith in Him. This quote shows the total reversal of roles in that God is trusting in His servants to build His kingdom, you can almost imagine God being up there thinking “I hope they can do it, what will I do if not?”

What did Jesus say?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

There is only one builder of the Christian Church and only one that could ever be trusted with such a task, and its certainly none of us.

See Others as They May Become
BY PRESIDENT THOMAS S. MONSON

Ok we reach the high point of the session, the President of the LDS Church, Gods mouthpiece to humanity speaks.

This talk is entirely devoted to how people can turn their lives around and how we should look to ourselves for that power to change, and also be able to help change others. He says this:

There is absolutely nothing in this world that will provide more comfort and happiness than a testimony of the truth. Although to varying degrees, I believe every man or young man here tonight has a testimony. If you feel that you do not yet have the depth of testimony you would wish, I admonish you to work to achieve such a testimony. If it is strong and deep, labor to keep it that way. How blessed we are to have a knowledge of the truth.

For Mormons this testimony is the inner conviction and assurance that the LDS Church and gospel is true, how do we get this, we work to receive it.

What does the Apostle Paul say:

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2)

How do we receive the Spirit? By works of the law or by hearing with faith?

President Monson also says this:

We need to be told that we amount to something, that we are capable and worthwhile.

This is good advice but its secular tried and tested psychological principles, if we keep getting told we can do things then we can. I struggle to see how God feels that His people will be at their most successful by simply trusting in themselves more, where is the dependence on Christ in this talk?

Ok I will get to the high point, which I feel sums up the heart of Mormonism today.

“In one particular meeting, N. Eldon Tanner, who was then an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve, had just returned from his initial experience of presiding over the missions in Great Britain and western Europe. He told of a missionary who had been the most successful missionary whom he had met in all of the interviews he had conducted. He said that as he interviewed that missionary, he said to him, “I suppose that all of the people whom you baptized came into the Church by way of referrals.”

The young man answered, “No, we found them all by tracting.”

Brother Tanner asked him what was different about his approach—why he had such phenomenal success when others didn’t. The young man said that he attempted to baptize every person whom he met. He said that if he knocked on the door and saw a man smoking a cigar and dressed in old clothes and seemingly uninterested in anything—particularly religion—the missionary would picture in his own mind what that man would look like under a different set of circumstances. In his mind he would look at him as clean-shaven and wearing a white shirt and white trousers. And the missionary could see himself leading that man into the waters of baptism. He said, “When I look at someone that way, I have the capacity to bear my testimony to him in a way that can touch his heart.”

There you have it world the picture of what humanity should be is not smoking a cigar in old clothes, this is the picture of sin, instead we should be clean shaven, wearing a white shirt, and white trousers. This is purity and it is worn on our outward appearance, what could be more foreign to Jesus and His gospel.

Right through the New Testament when do we see Jesus telling people to clean up their appearance and clothes? NEVER instead it says this:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Jesus said this in Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Could this be said of Mormonism too? Why didn’t this missionary see in His mind someone cleansed and forgiven by Christ’s blood? Instead of someone looking good outwardly? More than ever this talk and this session has convinced me that Mormonism is a religion that leaves people that are by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), still as people that are children of wrath but rather than smoking cigars and looking dirty they look great on the outside but are still the old man inside.

To sum up I want to say this: that when I see anyone who does not know Christ, even if they are wearing a thousand dollar suit, never smoked in their lives and is more cleanly shaved than anyone you have ever seen, if they are without Christ then they are still dead in their sin and with no eternal hope. This is how I see members of the Mormon Church and why I will be seeking to show them Jesus for the rest of my life.

However if I see someone with dirty clothes, a cigar in their hand and have not shaved for months, but loves Jesus and trusts in Him alone for their salvation, I see someone who is righteous, clean and has every eternal blessing to come.