Tagged as: British Pageant, British Pageant Protest, British Pageant Protesters, LDS, LDS UK, Mormon, Mormon Outreach, Mormon Outreach UK, Mormon UK, Paul Jennings
A “Protester” Reviews The British Pageant
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Beautifully presented review Paul. Respect is the key to breaking down barriers and reaching those who are questioning, and you possess that kind of respect. As a fully committed Mormon, (as I once was), I would have disagreed somewhat with your take on John Wycliffe, William Tyndale and others. I think I would have argued that they were moved by the spirit of the restoration to do what they did despite the spiritual darkness of their times, and they did what they did without understanding God’s fuller purposes. I used to view them as chosen to prepare the way for the restoration through Joseph Smith. However, you are correct in pointing out the huge gulf in theology between JS and the Protestant Reformers, and you are spot on in saying that truth has been twisted many times in producing the current Mormon narrative. Like you however, I do believe that truth will prevail, and when current members eventually see that their history has been manufactured and rewritten with a view to building up the image of the LDS church, and that it, (the institutional church), has become their God, then perhaps they will seek out the peace of the living gospel. Be patient, and keep showing respect. There are so many good people in the LDS church who deserve better than they are currently receiving.
A thoughtful and thought-provoking review. Some very good insights offered in a true spirit of grace.
Not very good at explaining myself but I’ll give it ago..
I don’t think the pageant was trying to suggest those people in history did follow the same gospel as the LDS church does. The LDS church believes the true fullness of the Gospel was restored through Joseph Smith. Those people had parts but not the fullness. Hope I make sense
Hi Danielle thanks a lot for the comment.
I don’t think there is anything malicious or deceptive going on with these guys being included in the Pageant at all.
Its just as Christians when we look at significant people in our history being used historically by a movement that claims they are part of the great apostate church, claiming they helped pave the way for their movements existence, we see that as a little offensive.
See this statement in the Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 14:10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save atwo churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the cdevil; wherefore, dwhoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the ewhore of all the earth.
Brigham Young also said
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testa- ment defines Christianity” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses, 10:230).
The Mormon Church has very much softened on these statements today, and tries to work as closely with the Christian Church as it can, however these foundations remain. And so to use a great Christian leader of the past and claim he helped pave the way for Mormonism, is not appreciated particularly amongst Christians like us, that see the significant differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
That was just to explain a little more. However as I said I know there is no malicious intent here at all. Thanks a lot for the comment!!
A Letter to the Anti¬-Mormons.
Ever since the beginning of Mormonism in the early 19th century, Anti-Mormon rhetoric has persisted. This comes mainly from main stream Christendom, and particularly from the evangelicals, and follows the same objections which have been aired thousands of times, and replied to by Mormons thousands of times! The question of Polygamy and Priesthood for Negroes has been hurled at Mormons possibly more than any other matter. I am not going to address those matters again. They have been dealt with so many times before. It would need some deep doctrinal explanations and need a book rather than a letter to deal with adequately.
I am convinced the objections are not so much a difference in doctrine. There are over 3000 different groups professing Christ, many teaching different doctrines. Doesn’t the Bible say there is ONE church and one baptism?
There is a very big difference between the Catholic doctrines and those of the Evangelicals for instance. Yet Catholics are accepted as Christian by the evangelicals!
So what is the definition of Christian? To me and all Mormons it is as follows: Those who profess Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Who believe ALL that the Bible says Jesus did and said. That He carried out the Atoning Sacrifice for us and was crucified and resurrected and will come again.
That Christians try to live their lives according to Christ’s commandments.
If this is the definition of Christian, (in the words of Jimmy Carter, ex president of the US and a Southern Baptist) Mormons are definitely Christian. Those who claim they are not are acting like the Pharisees of old!
The anti Mormons say, Mormons believe in a different Jesus! Really?
Well, the Jesus Mormons believe in is the one who is the Son of God. The Jesus written about in the Bible. Mormons do not dispute ANY of the inspired writings found in the Bible, and they accept the Bible as the Word of God.
Mormons love Jesus Christ as Saviour and Redeemer. Their church is called by His name. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”. Every sermon, every lesson, ordinance and prayer is given in the name of Jesus Christ. They endeavour to live their lives according to His commandments. He is the centre of their lives. Does all this make them Christian? Nooooo, not in the opinion of main stream Christianity!
Why? BECAUSE MORMONS DO NOT ACCEPT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY!
That is the foremost definition of Christian according to the main stream Churches! Therefore Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christodelphians are some others are not in the club!
Mormons are Trinitarians in that they believe the Godhead consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Three individual persons, one in intent and purpose.
So where did the Trinity doctrine originate? It began with the Catholic Church in 325 AD!
At the council of Nicaea, 318 clergy took part to decide the nature of the Godhead. Opposing sides took weeks to present their views. Both sides were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy.
Eventually the majority view won, as was insisted upon by Constantine. It took another 50 years before the Trinity doctrine was finally made universal Catholic doctrine. (Three in one goddesses and gods preceded Christianity by thousands of years).
When the Protestants withdrew from the Catholic Church, they took the Trinity doctrine with them.
Later, the non-conformists did the same.
The trinity is:
A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside and enigma!
It requires blind faith!
It defies logic!
It’s so convoluted it’s even difficult to read!
Even the clergy call it a mystery!
(God is not a God of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:3.)
It is a philosophy of man. It is not scriptural.
However, to be accepted as Christian by main stream Christianity, you have to accept it!
No need for another Bible?
Mormons accept and use and revere the Bible. They believe it is the Word of God, in as much as it is translated correctly. However, it has been re-translated many times into different languages and by different denominations. It can be very ambiguous. (The cause of so many denominations within Christendom?) The Book of Mormon is “another testament of Jesus Christ” written for these latter days, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, just like the Bible was. It does not dispute the Biblical content. Joseph Smith was a simple farmer. He had a very elementary education. He had never left the eastern part of the US. It has been said by a non-Mormon that it would take a team of theologians using modern resources years to write a comparable work! Joseph Smith completed the work alone in a few months!
I just read remarks from a Pentecostal Pastor. He said a man came up to him and said he wanted out of the Mormon Church, but felt trapped! The pastor asked him if he had ever prayed to Jesus Christ and was told no! No one is trapped in the Mormon Church. If anyone wanted to leave they could leave. If they were then approached to ask them to return, and was told no, and no further contact is wanted, those wishes would be respected. As for not praying to Jesus Christ, that could well be because he had been taught by the Mormon church to only pray to the Father, just as Jesus taught us to do! (Lord’s Prayer) Where are we told to pray to Jesus Christ?
Anti Mormons love to bring up things said and done by the early 19th century Mormon Church.
MAYBE, some things would have been better undone or unsaid. The church is made up then and now by imperfect people! The same could be said of the rest of Christendom. If we must look back, millions of Moslems, men women and children were butchered by Catholic Crusaders in the name of Jesus Christ! Torture as heretics in the Inquisition! Protestants slaughtered by Catholics and vice-versa. (Continued up to recently in Northern Ireland). Two million hung or burnt as witches! Non-conformists burnt as heretics! Pilgrim Fathers fled to America to find religious freedom and escape persecution! Mormons in the 19th century, burnt out! Whipped! Tarred and feathered! Driven from their homes in mid winter! Women folk molested! Men and boys shot dead (Haun’s Mill Massacre)! All by mobs calling themselves Christians! Attending church Sunday and actively encouraged by their clergy! Christian history is a river of blood! How about we leave the past in the past and just look at the now!
After almost 200 years, it would be nice if the anti-Mormons would let our doctrinal differences stand and agree to disagree. Live and let live. Mormons are God loving, Christ loving people who are family oriented, law abiding Taxpaying clean living citizens with high moral standards! They might defend their beliefs, but they do not run down other denominations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe our God would be more pleased if the antis would spend their energies in trying to convert the agnostics, atheists, and pagans who make up a huge part of our western communities today!
Todd Rayner.
Hi there Todd thanks a lot for the comment, I much prefer it when people clearly lay out there thoughts as you have.
Firstly could you clarify for me exactly what an “Anti-Mormon” is? I have recently been told I am more of a critic than an Anti-Mormon, I would love to know which title to stick with, neither worry me too much.
I know your right that many objections have been raised to Mormonism from the start and continue to carry on. You may see this as evidence of the Lords true Church as it will receive this treatment, for me its just there is no lack of material for critics of Mormonism to use.
The objection is absolutely a difference in Doctrine that keeps this ministry going. That is a difference in the Doctrine of Christ and Salvation. Historically you may believe in the Same Jesus as us, but Theologically they are massively different.
One of your Prophets Gordon B Hinckley recognized this
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
We simply call into strong question the validity of this Jesus the Mormon Church teaches and seek to communicate with LDS people on this issue and present information, what people do with this information is up to them. Its too easy to label us at hateful dishonest people, I have seen these labels and others put on critics of the LDS church for a while and it strikes me as simply a defense mechanism to ignore the claims made. Thankfully it seems many people are starting to look past this.
I would love to discuss the Trinity with you and whether it is taught in the Bible, however Im not going to waste my time discussing it with someone who merely trashes the doctrine without giving Biblical substance as to why it is wrong, something this ministry does do consistently with the issues we deal with.
If the Bible is so corrupted can I ask why your church uses the KJV and not the “inspired” version that Joseph Smith created?
Many people do feel trapped in Mormonism as they know the family implications of leaving, for many this has involved losing family members such as a wife or husband for life.
Yes we do love reffering back to the days when the Mormon Church was open about its doctrines, these days are long gone and so its much easier to get to the point quoting the likes of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce Mcconkie, Joseph Fielding Smith and so on, reffering to recent talks given by Jeffrey Holland or Thomas Monson will not tell you much, as they have learned that being too open about what the Mormon Church believes gets you into trouble and really challenges that “Christian” label that they want so much.
The reason we can never agree to disagree is not any dislike towards Mormons, or even offence taken at the teaching on the “Great Apostasy”. The reason is the same reason we cannot agree to disagree with Atheists, Muslims and so on, because you do not have the Biblical gospel and therefore do not know the God that created the world and sent His Son for you. Naturally you disagree with this and I would be happy to discuss it further, however this is why we do what we do.
For quite awhile I tried to “prove” mormonism wrong and that it wasn’t christianity but it was a battle which never ended…I could not convince them they were wrong, nor could they convince me they were right. It may just be my opinion, but I believe a christian to be anyone who follows the teachings of Christ, which they do. Long story short, what does God want from us? To seek him, and that is what both the “christians” and mormons both do, as well as muslims, jw’s, etc. As far as i’m concerned, you have all just made it too complicated and that is why people wipe their hands clean of religion.
We are all like infants when it comes to understanding heavenly matters, yet we often think we know it all.
I sometimes wonder why people want to go too deep into these waters without all the knowledge that precedes it.
Line upon line and precept upon precept we (Mormons) are taught. And that is why we are so vulnerable to the enemies of the church, because they argue from positions of total ignorance in respect of all the intermediate steps of doctrine that lead to the perfect understanding of the truth.
They have the “milk of the gospel” and have not been weaned onto the meat of the fullness of the gospel!
Someone wrote that a Mormon leader said that Heavenly Father had intercourse with Mary!!!
Jesus is indeed the Son of God as Heavenly Father is His literal Father. Also He is the Son of Man, in the flesh, due to Mary being His Mother.
The OVERSHADOWING of the Holy Ghost, did not make Mary pregnant. It was to protect and cover her from the Glory of God during her conceiving.
Heavenly Father begat Jesus, but did so from Heaven. The idea that God came down from heaven and had intercourse with Mary, MAY have been the opinion of Bruce R Mconkie, But it is not taught to Mormons, neither is it official Mormon doctrine. (Mckonkie was entitled to his opinion, (just as was the Anglican Bishop who stated that the virgin birth was not a fact!) Mormons believe Mary WAS a virgin which she would not have been if she had had intercourse.
Possibly the evangelical presence at the Pageant, and on this Blog, may cause a few Mormons to doubt their faith. Possibly a few may be persuaded not to join the Latter Day Saints.
However, at least 40 persons have asked to be referred to the missionaries as a direct result of the Pageant. Today there are thirteen and a half million persons on earth who have been confirmed members of the LDS (Mormon) Church. This number will greatly increase (70,000 missionaries in the field) until, in the words of Joseph Smith, “it will fill the entire earth”.
As King Canute proved, the tide will not be stopped!
I feel Heavenly Father may be more pleased with the evangelicals, if they concentrated their efforts, time and money on bringing to Christ the many millions of godless who make up so much of today’s western world, rather than setting up a mission trying to destroy the faith of those who already are God-fearing, Christ-loving people.
For that reason, I am leaving this site and will not be posting again on here. (good I hear you say ) I feel I have more important things to do for Christ than debate interdenominational doctrines.
So Bye Bye. (I wonder if this will be posted in its fullness)
Everything is always fully posted Todd unless its abusive. If you are not coming back I won’t do a long response only to say you are welcome back anytime!
Believe it or not we don’t expect everyone to agree with us and we enjoy a respectful discussion with anyone!