Hey all below is an interview with John Dehlin from Mormon Stories and Tom Phillips an ex Mormon Bishop/Stake President who no longer believes. He tells his story of leaving Mormonism and a ritual he went through in the Mormon Temple called the 2nd annointing. This interview has been talked about a lot lately because John Dehlin decided not to include it on his podcast, I think this was largely because of how closely it describes some LDS General authorities, its very long (4 hours plus) so its only for the super keen and while I would far from agree with everything Tom says it really is fascinating.
John Dehlin Interview with Tom Phillips
(Left Click to listen, right click and save target as to save)
Praise God for your courage Mr. Phillips! For standing up for what is true and right! You are a man of integrity and God will bless you. You were in positions of influence for the Mormon Church, but now you are in a mighty position for influence for God!!! Keep up the good work and continue to proclaim the truth!
Totally agree —– Mr/Bro Phillips was Awesome and an Inspiration to me! I am experiencing/going through some of the same things Mr. Phillips has and his thoughts have been a real help —– all 4 hours of them. I am/was not a Stake Pres or had 2nd endowment, but am trying a slower departure to save my family relationship. I have sent letters to the Gen authorities about doctrine errors in their talks and have had good response back with one who admitted he really meant something else but Elder Packer is either arrogant or so old he can’t/won’t respond to multiple critizisms. My wife (in Stake) was very mad at me when I announced I would not be paying any more tithing to a corrupt church and threatened me not to say anything in front of church friends or children/grandchildren again, so I told her I would say what I believed if asked and they have heard my main issues at least once so I hope they know where I stand. However, even when I say something that contradicts the doctrine of the church it doesn’t seem like church friends take it seriously (I really mean some things I say) at all, maybe it is my joking personality. I will not pay a corrupt church tithing although pay a generous fast as I think they have a good system to assist the poor with the fast offerings they get. I am still a priesthood leader and able to teach at least 4 times a year (I do teach what I believe as I believe in a lot of the doctrinal concepts in the scriptures whether or not the actual story may be a myth or fictional) and emphasize things such as trusting the Spirit and not leaders because they do not always have the Spirit and say inaccurate things —- we have actually discussed current examples even though I wasn’t sure that was always appropriate. One occasion it embarrassed the HP group leader when a “few” of us challenged a quote he used as “not true/believable” which was used by two “profits but well meaning”). I know my days are numbered which is ok as I am always afraid of what I may say, and know once those in power know I am not a tithpayer or when I come “out of the closet” I should be released. Apparantly, the local leaders still believe I pay tithing directly to church hqs (which I use to do every other year for tax reasons) —– but refusing to go to tithing settlement was not enough of a hint. If they don’t seriously try to embarrass me I will attend regularly to discuss the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I do believe in but I totally agree with Bro Phillips that some teachers way overemphasize “Follow the Prophet” even though I try as hard as I can to counter that when I teach and teach Follow the Spirit and the Doctrine of Jesus Christ!
Are you proud of a man that commited adultery on his wife and kicked out of a church and is now attempting to destroy that which is good and pleasing to the lord, God doesn’t bless people that ruin their own family, let alone try to attempt a church which he will never be successful as you can see the results he got in court. He is just a bitter man trying to seek revenge for his own actions
Mormon 8:21-22
And he that breathe out wrath and strifes against the work of the lord, and against the covenant people of the lord who are the house of Israel, and shall say: We destroy the work of the lord, and the lord will not remember his covenant which he hath made onto the house of Israel-the same is in danger to be hewn down and cast into the fire;
For the eternal purposes of the lord shall roll on, until all his promises shall be fulfilled.
Hi Kathleen. Was Tom Philips really excommunicated from the Church for adultery? I haven’t heard that mentioned before. If it’s true then that would explain why he is so bitter.
How did you get to find out about that? The Church haven’t made this public.
I am LDS btw. If it really is true thanks for sharing.
Ah, Kathleen, you prove the point that Mr. Phillips has just made! Because you are unable to provide any evidence about the substantive questions raised by him, you resort to name-calling and accusations of adultery — with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Slander, defame, and lie about people you don’t know — is that what your church teaches you should do when you don’t have any evidence? I assume that when YOU have a question (such as about an incorrect charge to your credit card, or about directions to the theater, or whether a repair was properly made to your car) that you would appreciate a straightforward answer rather than having the person call you an adulterer and a scumbag.
Dear Tom,
Although the Church has a responsibility to administer the gospel, it is not the living reality of all that is true, which can be found wherever there is a righteous desire to seek after the truth. Truth equals goodness, in all its manifestations, and whatever your faith or even lack of one. It is, by its very nature, independent from any scientific, archeological or dna evidence. Indeed, the evidence of the spirit is not of this world and can be entirely counter intuitive. In other words, do not ever confuse gospel truth with sceintific truth.
Indeed, even if we were all to say: ‘you’re absolutely right, on every point you make’. It still cannot deny the plan of salvation, the atonement and the eternal meaning and purpose of these spiritual truths, as they are taught through the Church. In other words, where do we go, with all this? And what are thos core values that bind us together … and are they worth retaining, in the form and manner in which we express them? On balance, Tom, I would say: yes, they are.
The gospel was restored under the withering fire of the adversary (for he is the god of this world) and continues to be subject to that evil fire, which can often be portrayed as a near perfect counterfeit of the truth. Satan knows exactly how much truth has been revealed, through the scriputres; and how he can turn this to his advantage. But it also means, at the most critical time, our faith will be tried to the very limits of our endurance: for the sifting process goes on, in all of us, right to the end of our mortal lives.
Yes, Tom, of course you are right to raise these issues … and I am certain your intentions were absolutely genuine. But there is no doubt, Satan will also use those good intentions to destroy your testimony of the gospel, which has undoubtedly happened, if you go beyond the mark, in order to discover the truth of all things, on the back of these issues. And by going down this crooked path you will ‘bring forth, therefore, fruits meet for repentence’.
My task is, in posting this, is not to convince you of these truths by countering such arguments. Rather, my task is to cry forth, continually: ‘Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ That you might also be baptised ‘with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will thouroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.’
Jason, think about what you are saying for a moment. If you indeed believe that Satan can portray evil as “a near perfect counterfeit of the truth”, then you must submit to the possibility that the LDS Church may be a near perfect counterfeit of truth. Do you acknowledged this possibility? When applying this same logic to your own worldview do you acknowledge that you might be wrong about your faith… that Satan has made your confirming spiritual experiences nearly perfect counterfeits of what would come from the Holy Ghost.
I choose to believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored through the prophet, Joseph Smith. But because of our fallen and mortal condition, its leaders make many errors, which is reflected in policies that feed the appetites of the natural man or woman in a state of ‘unrighteous dominion’, over us. The issue, Justin, is extremely complicated; but that doesn’t mean to say I should deny the truth and living reality of the gospel because its members have made many mistakes in seeking to fulfill the purpose of that gospel.
The Book of Mormon and LDS church does not come within any conceivable distance of the Biblical truth. It is filled with the pagan/occult in its writings, buildings and ceremonies.. It is anti-Biblical in that it sees the Bible as flawed, when in fact ancient Torah scrolls and other writings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls prove 99.99999% accuracy as opposed to the Book of Mormon has more than 3900 corrections of meaning plus numerous corrections of grammar and punctuations. The Bible is a book written by 44 authors over a period of 1500 years yet is internally consistant. There have been no changes in the original scripts, and we have found thousands of pieces of evidence outside the Bible. It is filled with has Meta Codes,Mega Codes, Micro Codes, Heptatic structures. There are mountains of archarlogical evidence. In these categories, the Book of Mormon has none. 0.00000000. The only problems are problems of translation, not problems of the original WORD, Please read three books by a Nobel nominated astrophysicist/microbiologist, Gerald Schroeder: “The Science of God”, “The Hidden Face of God”, “The Big Bang in the Bible.”
I also suggest you read “Just Too Wierd” by noted historian, Webster GriffenTarpley ,
Tom, I joined the church in 1973 and for the next 39 years tried to do everything that was right according to the gospel. I served for 25 years in callings in bishoprics, high councils or stake presidencies in New Zealand and Canada, and never doubted that the church was true until I was released from the stake presidency due to a dishonest person in the church who I was going to take to court. Unfortunately my Stake President told me I could never take a fellow member to court. To make a long story short, this dishonest man is now serving as a bishop, even after embezzling from at least four people, for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Having been involved in the selection of bishops, I could not understand how this person could have been approved by a Prophet, Seer and Revelator. I pushed that aside but it started a process of questioning, researching on the internet and that eventually led to my wife and I reading Grant Palmers “Mormon Origins”. As a result of reading this well researched book, we came to the sudden realization that the Book of Mormon wasn’t true, yet it was the cornerstone of our religion. As we realized this, our testimony of the church fell like a house of cards as it is obvious the evidence does not support what is claimed by the church.
In March of this year, 2012, we decided to have no more association with the church. Your inspiring podcast with John has so many similarities to our experiences that we felt we had to write and express our gratitude for your honesty and integrity.
Kindest regards,
Peter in Canada
I totally related to Tom’s experience. One of the things that I have noticed in my life is the same as Tom mentioned about being offended. I have been offended MORE since leaving than I ever was before. It is quite interesting that my leaving may be attributed to my being offended but I was NOT offended by anyone when I left THEN I was offended by several things several times since leaving. I WAS offended by the doctrine.
I also regret having ever joined the church. I do feel that there is more damage done than good but my husband feels exactly the opposite about it.
Wow. What a parade of victims this page is. Poor victims suffering at the hand of ruthless Mormons! That’s all I ever read on these anti-Mormon pages. They walk around with a little storm cloud hovering around their heads with thunder and lightning striking about. Anything negative, anything not praiseworthy or of good report — they seek after these things. Whine, yap, moan, and gripe. Point fingers at and mock others for their beliefs. What a sorry lot.
As a devoted life-long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I am more impressed with the marvelous, positive fruits of this religion than ever. Negative, dreary things are everywhere if you seek them. Positive, uplifting things are everywhere if you seek them.
Well enjoy those uplifting things my friend, when you start to value truth more, we will be here.
Your words remind me of the words of Boyd K Packer one of your apostles.
“I have a hard time with historians… because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.”
Apostle Boyd K. Packer, as related by D. Michael Quinn, “Pillars of My Faith,” talk delivered at Sunstone Symposium, Salt Lake City, August 19, 1994.
Well said, Bobby! DWRogers, perhaps conveniently, omits the first virtue listed in Philippians 4:8, to which he alludes: “…whatever things are TRUE…”. If not founded in truth, the other virtues are of value but ultimately fraudulent. Tom Phillips praised Mormon culture to the skies in the interview. But Tom, like Michael Quinn and Grant Palmer to name but a few, had the integrity to choose truth over pragmatism though it cost him dearly.
You are either suffering from a severe case of cognitive dissonance, or you are cleverly misrepsenting the Church by talking it up to the point of absurdity!
You should read ‘stake president’s blog’: the tone of your comments clearly mirrors his kind of agenda and humour.
However, the problem is, if you seek to deny my assertion with even more strenuous positvism, it will merely further confirm that your comments are actually just a spurious defence of all things Mormon.
No victims here…..only overcomers.
ok..i listened to almost all of the interview and it was great. this earth was made from these materials and we will make an earth upon that we may dwell. 30000 year old beings and paintings and animals. whats the problem? matter cannot be destroyed. book of abraham. no problem…i will be glad to talk with this person. the bom true.. stick of emphraim…one that is not learned///wisdom of the wise shall perish…great and marvelous work…
You may want to take a look at quantum physics. We are frequencies and about .00001 % something that may be called matter. Go to YouTube and enter “quantum physics” of quantum mechanaics.” Smith was .00001% right. Sounds like bad odds even for a false prophet.
I would like to comment on one topic that Tom brought up time and again. There was no death prior to Adam and Eve and they lived around 4000 bce. Some do take this position but the Church has no official doctrine about these issues. The B.H. Rboerts – Joseph Fielding Smith debates were clairified by the first presidency to this effect. Where there humans before Adam? Perhaps. Was there death before the garden of Eden? Perhaps. We don’t know the details. The Lord has not revealed any information regarding this matter. To take a literal and/or a fundamentalist view of the revealed truth can lead to a very limited understanding that may be incorrect. Now how do we decide what is a valid answer to any question? We probably know less than one percent of anything about anything. Perhaps faith bridges the gulf until we do have the details.
we will go down for there is space there and we will take these materials to build he earth..the materials…parts of other planets!
Thank you so much for sharing your story. You are a man of honesty and integrity. I left the church last year after 33 years as a fully active, believing member. I had a pile of things that troubled me, but never even considered the idea that the church may not be true, until I heard of Joseph Smith’s polyandry. As I looked deeper, I found out so much more, until I saw the cult for what it really is. What hurts me the most is that the brethren know these things. They know, yet they keep them away from the members. I feel totally betrayed by men that I once respected and revered. Thank you for your courage in getting your story out there in the open.
Glenda, you, Tom, and many others fell victim to fault-finders and those who seek to elevate their lot in life by exploiting weakness in others. You see it in politics. You see it in religion. That Moses killed a man, or that Elisha summoned two bears to kill 42 children, or that Joseph Smith was involved in polygamy are issues I put on a shelf until such day that more facts are furnished concerning these events.
Anti-Mormonism is devious in that it exploits easily misunderstood people, events, or doctrines. It takes mere snapshots of history and embellishes it to appear that all the facts are present, which they are not.
One Mormon historian, Davis Bitton, once declared “I do NOT have a testimony of Church history.” This talk, easily available on the internet, focuses on the more weighty matters of religious life: Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is our Savior. God is our Heavenly Father and we are His children. He said that his faith is not attached to events of Church history.
Other questions our faith addresses deal with what is the purpose of life? Where did we come from? Where are we going when we die? Will there even be a life after this death? How do/can we know this for sure, one way or the other?
How about the nature of evil? Who/what is Satan or the devil? Is he real? What is his influence? How does he operate?
I would invite you, Tom Phillips, John Dehlin, and others, to shun the negativity and come back into the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as actively taught in His true Church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I really like your thought on more weighty matters, our Savior Jesus Christ. For the last few months in a Zion Ward with mostly old members (previous Stake presidents, Stake officers, relief society presidents, and Bishops) I have noticed very closely their testimonies. Guess What? Most all say they KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet, they KNOW the Book of Mormon is True and Tommy is a living prophet but only about 10% (to be generous) mention anything about OUR SAVIOR AND REEDEMER JESUS CHRIST! The 10% say they are thankful for Christ’s atonement ——- no one not one expressed they KNOW that Jesus Christ lives or has any impact on their lives at all! One would logically assume that being a member of the True church more Elect members would be expressing weighty matters in their testimonies about their relationship with Jesus Christ —– like how they have experienced being born again and had Christ and the Spirit with them constantly directing them every day! Do you think Christian Churches bear testimony or talk of their relationship with Martin Luther or any other historical Christians or their pastors or preachers?? Wake up and see the result of Brainwashing!
I hear what you are saying and I agree to a point. Many do focus on the Church, Book of Mormon and the president of the Church being a prophet. Perhaps putting our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ is a given and we need to put of focus on what is happening today instead of what happened 2000 years ago. From my perspective I think the Savior is becoming central in our services. I was just part of a Stake conference wherer the visiting general authority gave a very Christ centered sermon. If you don’t like what is going on just wait, things change over time. The Savior is in charge of our course and destination. Sometimes it just takes time to turn the ship.
-Ned
Just one more comment. Over the years I have seen many become disaffected from the Church because they found out this or that about something or other. I can understand the feeling of being lied too or just not being informed about some less than ideal event or action by the leadership of the Church. In all truth I think that if I had learned of these many less than stellar facts in my early days of memership it would have pushed me out of the Church. Since, I have discovered many of these acts and I have changed my view of the Church. The Church is not the gospel. The Church is a tool the Lord uses to implement His gospel into the lives of Father’s children. If you hitch your wagon to the Church you will at some point be disappointed. If you hitch your wagon to the Savior He will see you through the shortcomings of His servants. Don’t take your eyes off the Savior. Don’t become so institutionalized that by what you say and what you do you wind up worshipping the structure instead of He who created you. His gospel is perfect but the implementation by his servants can become less than ideal. Don’t through the baby out with the bathwater.
Over time, I do believe that certain members become mesmerised by the ‘large and spacious building’ syndrome. They see themselves as: the elite and those who are born to lead. It is highly insidious, and blinds them to the ‘evil in high places’, which has insinuated itself into the mindset of our leaders.
This comment is excellant! I have come to understand exactly what you are saying. We are all here to learn. We all are at different levels of learning and applying what we learn. There are all kinds of weaknesses that are being dealt with. You have to recognize the perfectness of the gospel and Jesus Christ and somehow, that makes it easier to see and forgive the mistakes and weaknesses of others. The church IS a tool. The more you learn to use this tool effecively, the more you are able to learn and do. The same as any other tool. If you arn’t using the tool for the purpose it was meant for, it can do more harm than good.
I’m with you, Ned. I’ve also come to realize that our allegiance to Jesus Christ all the organic messiness of mortality. Check out Rock Waterman’s excellent exploration of the Church’s corporate structure: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-corporatism-has-undermined-and.html. For a different reason I also like Eugene England’s classic essay, Why the Church is as True as the Gospel: http://www.scribd.com/doc/106857190/England-Why-the-Church-is-as-True-as-the-Gospel
I am sick, tired, disgusted with the Mormon pseudo-intellectual clap trap. There is nothing NOTHING Biblical in what they say. The purpose of YHWH is not to establish a corporation, but a kingdom and His Kingdom is not of this world, certainly not in any ecclesiastical body. Morfmonism is full to the gills with lies, and even one lie negates it as an instrument in the Hand of the Almighty God. The only truth is in His WORD, written in 66 books by 44 authors over a period of 1500 years…yet itr is internally consistens and contains an actual, verifiable history. The early leaders of the Mormon church resemble more the wicked kings of Israsl with their many wives, murder and taking people into the false pagan religions of Nimrod which culminate in today’s variations of Freemasonry inclusing the self-cursing oaths and silly handshakes of of the temple ritual. Read 1 Kings 17 and you will find that Solomon lost his kingdom because he would now destroy the symbols of Nimrod including the five pointed star of Baphomet, the Eye of Horus, Sun/Moon/Star symbold and the phallic obelisk of Nimrod that crowns Mormon buildings.
I am sick, tired, disgusted with the Mormon pseudo-intellectual clap trap. There is nothing NOTHING Biblical in what they say.
Pseudo-intellectual clap trap? Nothing Biblical? Sounds like someone is a little on the judgmental side. I’m not quite sure what clap trap is. Poppy cock? Pish posh or tommy rot? What about rubbish? Who decides what is true? If I don’t understand God’s word the way you do am I condemned and going to hell or are you? Perhaps we are all growing and the structure of the Church is a rough stone rolling along with it’s members. The only perfect understanding of the gospel in within the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Just a thought,
-Ned
Who decides what is true? God decides what is true! It is written in His WORD, in His language, which is Hebrew. The truth is established internally on a few levels. One is internal consistency. We know from Dead Sea Scrolls that Hebrew document agree with each other through the millenia. We can compare other documents with the Aleppo Codex (circa 1000 BCE) and they are nearly 100% consistent with current texts. The Hebrew Matthew had only two words that do not agree. Recently unearthed Masada Scrolls exactly match today’s Torah scrolls. There are no 3900 changes, plus punctuation changes in the original tests. However, there are 11 differences in vowel markings between the Sephardic/Ashkanazi texts and Yemini texts.
Another is the God-breathed internal structure of the Bible. There are multiple levels of interpretation such as gematria, Micro Codes, Macro Codes, Meta Codes, heptatic structures that support the consistency of Torah and several Brit Chadashah (Renewed Covenant) texts such as the genealogies, in addition to maybe thousands of legitimate Biblical Codes (yes, there are some nutcases who do not have valid computer programs.) In addition to the original Hebrew meaning of each word in Torah and other scriptures.
God is not changeable. Bible believing Jews and Christians have consistently taught the Oneness of God and the cry of Judah for 3500 years has been “Hear, Oh Israel, the YHWH, our God, YHWH is One.” He is not one (as in the Book of Mormon) then two (as in Lectures on Faith and Doctrines of Salvation) then three as currently taught in Mormonism. YHWH was never a man. This an anti-Biblical teaching. He did not establish a “church” but rather ecclesia and house churches…there was no formal church structure until the Constantinian religions were established.
The prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled with astonishing accuracy….to the day, and they do not have to be “revised” to make them true. Can that be claimed for Mormon prophets who have overturned doctrines of other prophets such as disclaiming the King Follet Discourse, plural marriage, the White Horse Prophecy,Adam/God “theory” (when was doctrine ever theory), blacks and the priesthood.
And that is just a smidgen, beginning of the problems with the “truthfulness of the church” other than the entire concept of an organization/corporation being the embodiment of truth is absurd.
Look for my book, which is not so much narrative, as a reference guide to evidences of the Defective Cornerstones of Mormonism. .
Gematria? How knows what that means? I had a distant memory that it had something to do with numbers assigned to letters or words. I looked it up and it is essentially Hebrew numerology. Talk about rubbish. God breathed internal structure in to the Bible? Sounds like a marketing terminology phrase. …problems with the “truthfulness of the church” other than the entire concept of an organization/corporation being the embodiment of truth is absurd. I don’t know anyone who believes this. Never heard it spoken in general conference. The Church is NOT the gospel. It is a tool the Lord uses to implement His gospel. Is it the only tool He uses? NO. Lighten up.
Bad definition, Gematria is not numerology. Every Hebrew letter has a corresponding letter. It provides another layer of meaning. For instance, the Gematria for the letters where God says “Let there be light are 196,000 or the speed of light.” and that is only one of numerous examples.
Is there anywhere in the Bible where God establishes a financial corporation to send forth His Word. He does not need an organization. For 1500 years until Yeshua, God’s WORD was taught in small communities, there was no formal organization except the kingship (organization), which brought war and broke up the nation of Israel. Rabbi’s were Torah teachers and received the WORD as inspired by the Ruach Ha Kodesh, the Holy Spirit, for their community, sitting on Moses Seat.
Where they became the “vipers” was in the ritual application and the politicization and institutionalization of the body.
The fidelity of the WORD came through the scribes who kept each jot and tittle, lest one wrong letter would destroy the whole Matthew 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” The perfectt prophecy of the perfect preservation of Torah and thousands of Dead Sea Scrolls. This is the God’s standard. Mormon scriptures are thousands of times removed from the standard of YHWH.
The ‘structure’ is really the whole plan of salvation, which has been revealed through the Church Handbook of Instruction. But it only has any validity, if it is truly gospel-centered and not programme-centered. Very few people, within the Church, have attempted to understand the visionary depths of the plan of salvation, as revealed through the Handbook, in a gospel-centered context. Our fallen condition will mostly prevail in allowing an ‘unrighteous dominion’ to dominate our thinking. Having a scant regard for, or knowledge of, the proper line of authority, in order to make things more convenient, is the most common casue of unrighteous dominion. Indeed, the gospel is NEVER convenient for the natural man. You need a testimony of both, in order for the plan of salvation to possess the structured validity, which it ultimately requires. What sets us apart, is precisely this progrmme; and if you implement it, the gospel will naturally flow into it.
The other great danger, that has to be avoided, is the ‘humble vessel’ cult of personality. If, as a preisthood holder, you have formulated a personlity that has cracked that one … you need to repent, fast! I would say: by keeping things in their proper context and possessing straight-forward commonsense, all washed down with a lively and intelligent testimony of the gospel, is the perfect antidote to the subtle and insidious dangers of Satan’s perfect vanity trick!
When an LDS member talks about ‘the Gospel’ it is the LDS version of what this is. The word ‘Gospel’ simply means the good news. And if you got together a whole group of different Christian religions then they would all have their own particular brand of good news. The church uses it’s programs to help people come unto Christ. It is their main way of doing it. When a youth member is interviewed, a discussion about what it means to be Christ like and how they are achieving it does not happen (the best source of truth on what this is would be the sermon on the mount) they are asked about things that are included in the Strength of Youth booklet. So why have these programs if they can pull people away from ‘the Gospel’? The difficulty is that – looking from the outside – the LDS church has become VERY COMPLEX. If you look at the original teachings of Jesus, it’s simple, it’s an internal thing that is achieved through having a ‘change of heart’. The programs of the church were a burden to me in this respect. It took me away – due to the time they took up – from finding people around me (LDS and non LDS) to serve. It also encouraged me to do this service for blessings or for a reward in heaven. As I left this way of thinking and just served people for the sake of doing it – for no reward what so ever I learnt what the real good news was. I now attend my village church where every week their entire message is about Jesus. If it were like this in the LDS church I’d be happy to attend but it is not. Jesus gets a rare message and usually in a negative way – I don’t feel he wants us to be miserable about how bad we are and need his atonement, he wants us to rejoice in the gift God created us as sinners so we learn – he’d hardly punish us for it. It is a truth in teaching that you should never teach a child something that they can discover themselves – they are then empowered because it is their own discovery. I respect that the LDS way is right for some people and I am pleased it brings them joy and happiness, but for me it simply never did. Simple Christian living brings me that peace and I accept the mysteries of life are supposed to be mysteries and focus on my own little Universe – my husband, family and community.
So beautifully put, Lilly! For me the gospel is simply and perfectly expressed in Jesus’ statement that “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Now, THAT’s good news! So when I wonder whether to run from the Father in fear or to contritely run to him in faith, I look at Jesus ALONE. When I wonder whether spending an eternity with God is something to be desired or avoided, I look at Jesus ALONE. “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.” Good news indeed!
“John Dehlin Interviews Tom Phillips. | Mormonism Investigated UK” was indeed a very good
read and also I ended up being quite content to discover the blog.
Thanks for your effort-Kathie
I left Mormonism 20 years ago. If you asked people why they left, I may be the only one to say it was out of boredom. For 15 years, I looked at many alternatives. Seven years ago I found the Hebrew Roots of the Christian Faith. Looking at the Bible through Hebrew lens changed my world. A good place to start understanding Genesis is on youtube.com and Chuck Missler’s teaching on Genesis. He answers several of your questions in the light of principles of quantum physics. For instance, he talks about the gap theory Genesis which in English says “the earth was without form and void” but in Hebrew it says “earth had become without form and void (chaos)) leaving the door open to entertaining the idea that there were previous civilizations, possibly Atlantis and ancient American cultures.
I suggest you add some of the works of Gerald Schroeder to your library. “The Science of God”, “Genesis and the Big Bang” “The Hidden Face of God” PhD MIT, Professer at Mit, Currently Head of Microbiology at Hebrew University, Nobel Prize nominee in microbiology.
John: One does not channel scripture…..one channels the occult. Mormonism is filled with the pagan/occult symbology and ceremony.
The Koran was written by a Rabbi who was imprisoned and wrote the Koran under threat of death if he did not write a book that could be attributed to Mohammed.
By the way, the Idea of God allowing His WORD to be translated from Hebrew, a language built on sememes (concepts) to be translated into a language of pagan sememes (concepts) is more than ludicrous, it is impossible. It is as simple as transferring the concepts of the NAME YHWH into Egyptian sememes which would transform YHWH from the GOD of creation into the God who requires child sacrifice and other pagan practices. Look into Worf’s Hypothesis on the influence of language on thought.
Please excuse the typos…..I didn’t proof, as I am moving today.
I find it strange that the idea of of the earth being older than 6000 yrs never occurred to him during the last 30 some odd years of being in the church. Had he never heard of dinasours.
I don’t think that you have to take everything literally to be a faithful member of the church. Our faith is not a sure knowledge of how or why things are. There are several things taught in the church that are subjective speculation; born out of us trying to rationalize and justify how we think about things unknowable. Unless the prophet says “thus saith the lord …” I chalk it up to someone’s subjective ideas. We don’t know all there is to know about everything and most likely never will.
Could the church be a big lie? Sure. Could it be true? Also sure. It all boils down to us believing what we want to believe. We tend to validate information that supports what we want to believe and negate that which goes against it.
Perhaps the stress of the second anointment experience led him to want out of the church and to questions that would justify his decision to leave. Why else did these basic conflicts and questions never occur to him before.
We all have to live with the choices we make.
Whether they are right or wrong we may never know.
Unless it is written in the WORD of God standing as His perfect WORD beginning 3500 years ago at the foot of Mt. Sinai that had how had one jot or tittle added or taken away…then you can believe. In order to understand God’s WORD, you must hear it in His language which is Hebrew. The Mormon “thus saith the Lord” has changed so many times, it is mind boggling. First there were 7 versions of the first vision, then 3900+ word changes in the Book of Mormon, then the Lectures on Faith were decanonized, then men could marry numberous wives…then they couldn’t, then the King Follett Discourse was Smith’s premier revelation then we don’t mention it, then the black’s cannot then can hold the priesthood and above all in order to enter a temple you must pass by the inverted five-star symbol of Baphomet and eye pagan eye of Horus, then you have to place death cult curses on yourself then you don’t have to act them out you only agree to them……the list is endless. SO WITH SO MANY CHANGES PLEASE ANSWER ME…..WHY SHOULD I CARE WHAT THE FAKE PROPHET HAS SPOKEN WHEN I CAN COUNT ON COMPLETE CONSISTENCY OVER MILLENIA AND CONTINENTS?
I hate to deflate your ego but if changes in the Book of Mormon are a big deal to you, then you’ll need to address changes in the Bible as outlined here: http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/
Also, did you know all the italicized words in the KJV are words added since the KJV was translated? What were you saying about changes? To me its no big deal. I still believe it.
Changes in the BoM were mainly punctuation. There were no changes to the doctrines so preciously taught therein. You can be rest assured that it is another volume of scripture which testifies of Christ. Have you read it? Its absolutely marvelous!
Next, what are your thoughts about Moses, a prophet of God, also being guilty of murder? He killed an Egyptian didn’t he?
How about the prophet Elisha getting so mad at a bunch of kids making fun of his bald head that he summoned two bears to kill all 42 of them? Don’t you think that’s pretty harsh for a prophet of God?
Check your original BoM against today’s. 3900 are wording changes. The KJV has been a work in progress for a long time. It has been revised as the language changed, because Hebrew is so difficult to translate. However DIFFICULTIES WITH TRANSLATION DO NOT ALTER THE PERFECTION OF THE ORIGINAL. The “as far as it is translated correctly” is a frivolous statement. Your argument is build on a false premise. Changes in a translations does not negate the perfection of the original. The 700 BCE Aleppo Codex, over a thousand Dead Sea Scrolls, Masada Torah Scrolls (which exactly match today’s scrolls). the Hebrew Matthew all reflect the Word of the Lord that one jot or tittle will not be changed until Heaven and Earth pass away. A bad translation does not alter in any way, the perfection of the original script.
Moses killed an Egyptian when he saw him brutalizing a couple of Israelites. Brigham ordered the slaughter of hundreds of innocents and practiced blood atonement through his Danite vigilantes. Joseph Smith killed two people before he jumped out of the window shouting the Masonic cry for mercy.
Elisha did not summon the bears, he pronounced a curse upon them and two bears came out of the woods and mauled NOT KILLED 42 . Looks like that was the Lord’s work. We have no idea what the particulars are, so I guess we should not judge the LORD.
DWRogers attempts to expose the bible as problematic. This is a usual Mormon tactic when their own scriptures are exposed as troublesome they resort to bible attacks which they want to palm off as equally troublesome?
So DWRogers how come you spend so much time listening to Bart Ehram and giving him such credibilty, and yet he would likely have even worse things to say about LDS scripture origins and blunders.You’re fortunate he wasn’t born LDS and is attacking only bible based beliefs.
Mormonism is a great trap and route to athiesm. Once you discover it’s scriptures and leaders are a fraud, they attempt trap you with Athiestic arguments against the bible. lol
PS The Book of Mormon doesn’t testify of Christ. It uses and abuses the name of Christ in an attempt to legitimise and give authority to the Con Artist Joseph Smith. Once he saw people falling for it and believing he was a prophet in communication with God, he starts wanting lots of females and money and claims God said so! It’s a disgrace.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all the other leaders were nothing but abusive lying opportunistic cult leaders.
EJ, you’re speaking as a bigot. Read my reply again.
Typical of Mormon apologists. They obfuscate and divert attention. Ask yourself “Did Jesus have a problem with the Bible?” Yes or no. Obviously not, because he said several times that not one jot or tittle would be changed lest heaven and earth pass away. Did he have a King James Version of the Bible? Silly question. Of course not, He had his Torah scroll and the community would have had manuscripts from the writings and the prophets. So these manuscripts were Yeshua’s scripture. Rather than split hairs over this or that translation, let’s go back to the originals as suggested in my previous posting: beginning with the 305,000+ Hebrew characters in Torah which have not changed in over two centuries of diaspora, Dead Sea Scrolls, Aleppo Codex, and the Hebrew Matthew to begin with. Purchase a Strong’s Concordance and begin to look up original Hebrew meanings. Get yourself informed and educated in the WORD of God before you start following rabbit trails leading to confusion.
Great comments both sides except for Mr. Hebrew Roots. Go read a few biblical scholars and you’ll see how wonderful the bible is compared to the BofM. For example how many times does the cock crow before or after Peter denied. Inconsistencies go on everywhere in life (as in bible and BofM and apostles…) as all the above comments have well said. We should hope, trust and believe that Christ is the way.
PS, John D. is my neighbor. I enjoy worshiping with all kinds.
It is Grandma Hebrew Roots. Do you even know what it means “before the rooster crows?” It is Hebraism referring to the equivalent of the English town crier such as “It is twelve o’clock and all is well.” The 11 references to the rooster crow need to be examined. The rooster crowed at the beginning of the day (sundown in Israel) and at sunrise, at minimum. My (Jesus believing) former Talmud/Torah Yeshiva teacher has a couple good DVD’s on the subject. Mormons tend to pick out factoids to mask their lack of understanding of the weightier matters such as Mark 23:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one” Also ignoring ” In the beginning was the WORD (Torah) and the WORD (Torah) was God.” Then take a journey through the what the first word of the Bibie “B.'” means beginning by breaking down the Hebrew script letters and letter combinations. They you have come to the kindergarten level of understanding the first word in the Bible. .
Correction. I don’t know why some of the letters were dropped in my reply. “The first word of the Bible is B’resheit. which is translated as “beginning” but breaking it down to script letters and letter combinations, it is a summation of the purpose YHWH gave us His WORD. You can go online and get a copy of the imagery of the letters from the paleo-Hebrew through the Aramaic script. This is a good place to start exploring the meaning of the Bible as the prophets, Yeshua, the wruters if th Brit Chadashah (Renewed Covenant) understood the language..
Listening the interview with Tom Phillips brings back memories of my own experience in leaving Mormonism.
Religion should not make you choose between intellectual integrity and belonging. Religious faith has betrayed you if it forces you to believe in things which insult your soul or deny your personal values. Real faith does not foster bigotry, persecution or intolerance. Neither does it maintain an unreasoned attitude toward the discoveries of science.
Integrity, excellence and caring are the high values that give meaning and structure to life. Religion should adapt to these values and evolve, not the other way around.
In addition to the story of Tom Phillips, consider the story of Michael Quinn as a study on how personal integrity differs from that of the institutional church.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/11/d_michael_quinn_and_mormon_excommunication_the_complicated_life_of_a_mormon.html
I am most saddened by the notion of a monopoly on the Holy Ghost as taught by the LDS church. I doubt that the Holy Ghost forsakes anybody with a pure heart and he seems to care little about religion and denominations and boundaries (the wind blows anywhere). There is a world out there with more Holy Ghost stories happening outside the LDS church than inside.
Check out Heidi Baker for example.
https://www.facebook.com/HeidiBakerFriends
Walter, Its one thing to leave but another to try to destroy. Someone who tries to destroy others and their church is another. That my friend is not pure in heart. Any Church or religion will preach pure in is being Christlike and placing this much effort to it, is not quite there
Looking forward to tom phillips enlightening new comments or book if it comes in that form I believe he is a man of great integrity and his only motive is truth whatever it may be, his realisation cost him dearly but still he continues,
God bless you tom
Tell us more
Martin smith
There is a challenge in the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:3-5) that says that in order to find out if the book were true or false, one must ask God in all sincerity and humility. For me it took three years of investigating to find out, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that the Book contains the true teachings of God, and invites people to come unto Christ. Whenever I feel doubtful about a teaching or doctrine, I think back to the time when I first obtained a pure and clear testimony of that teaching and doctrine. It was through sincerely asking God, Our Heavenly Father, in the holy name of Jesus Christ and with a strong urge to be filled with light and understanding. Some testimonies took quite some time, weeks, or even months to receive.
Whenever I feel that an LDS Church leader may have made a mistake in his decision and even when I see that this leader has made a mistake, I feel like David who would not kill King Saul because Saul was God’s annointed. Whenever a leader in my ward or stake is called, I ask in humble and sincere prayer, and many times coupled with fasting, if this leader was really whom the Lord had in mind for that specific assignment. The answers come with the indelible knowledge that he/she has been called of God for that purpose, and my spirit is comforted.
Elder Jeffrey R Holland, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said that, …”…perfect though God may be, He has no where else to look to find those who will run His Church, but to His imperfect sons and daughters”.
Read this Doctrine and see if it does not come true, Do you honestly think the lord wouldn’t the Prophet go down for your Stupid beliefs!
Mormon 8:21-22
And he that breathe out wrath and strifes against the work of the lord, and against the covenant people of the lord who are the house of Israel, and shall say: We destroy the work of the lord, and the lord will not remember his covenant which he hath made onto the house of Israel-the same is in danger to be hewn down and cast into the fire;
For the eternal purposes of the lord shall roll on, until all his promises shall be fulfilled.
All of you should know that Tom Phillips was first ex communicated and became bitter and is now doing what he’s doing for his own revenge! Leave everyone be, you have caused enough damnation for yourself, save it that you repent! You were my stake president and Its scary what happens when the spirit leaves you and the adversary becomes powerful, sad, sad, sad.
im a lost sheep who found great pastures elsewhere,i joined in 1978 went to the london hyde park stake and left in 2004