I believe that God is the most glorious being that exists. That He by nature exists, and always has, and is acts according to His own good pleasure in all that He does.

God’s primary goal is His own glory. All that He does, all that He allows to happen is permeated with this desire that His own glory might be displayed. His interaction with humanity is no exception to this, at all.

In a recent discussion with an LDS person I was told that if Gods primary concern is Himself He is not worthy of worship. To be fair I understand this perspective, and if this was being said of anyone other than God it would be perfectly justified. This is where I feel that Mormons really miss the distinction between God and man, again I understand why this is the case.

The truly excellent talk displayed above given by my favourite preacher John Piper really deals with this subject. He talks about the God of the Bible that is totally zealous for His glory and how we fit in with that. This has been and is very much going to continue to be a theme that I am going to be posting on, so for those that want to really understand where I am coming from and actually engage with it and understand it. Please give this a listen and by all means leave your thoughts.

This most certainly goes both ways. Much of my reading time these days is spent reading pro-LDS material rather than critical. I hope some of you will take the chance to do the same so you can understand where I am coming from, and where a lot of my motivation comes from in doing this ministry.

thanks a lot.

Kimball goes on to make the point that when we sin we are serving Satan.  In making his point there follows an excellent example of Mormon leaders using the Bible to teach what they want and not letting the Bible speak for itself.  Kimball quotes Romans 6, but look at the part he has left out (I have added it back in in italics):  “Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield

yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you:  for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”  The Bible here is clearly teaching a very different view to that which Kimball is trying to present.  Kimball is trying to say that we must serve God and avoid sin at all costs so that God will accept us.  But the quote, in its context, is saying that those who are under grace are not subject to these demands, because such people have accepted the saving work of Christ.  The point being made by Paul is that such people must not then think it is fine to sin, you must instead serve Him in whose righteousness we share: “Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”  It is because of the deceptive use scripture such as this that many of us work to expose Mormonism as a manipulator of the true gospel.

Moving on through the chapter, Kimball attempts to categorise sins:  “Sins may be classified in many categories. They range from the simple improprieties and indiscretions to the shedding of innocent blood and the sin against the Holy Ghost. There are sins against ourselves, sins against our loved ones, sins against our fellowmen, sins against our communities, sins against the Church, sins against humanity. There are sins which are known to the world and others which are so carefully hidden that the sinner is

the only mortal being who knows of the error.”  Surely the sentence missing at the end of this paragraph would be: “Yet no matter what the sin is, all are sins against God, since sin is when we don’t live up to the image of God that He created in us.”  This is surely the key characteristic of sin, that we have become corrupted from what God intended for us and as a corrupt version of God’s ideal for us, we are therefore incapable of ‘de-corrupting’ ourselves.  Of course, this is not Kimball’s emphasis.  Later, Kimball does say, “every sin is against God” but I will respond to that in its context when I reach that point in the chapter.

Amongst the many examples Kimball provides of scriptural examples or descriptions of sin, we have a quote from 2 Timothy 3, which includes a phrase Mormons love to use in describing traditional Christianity: “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away”.  It is important, as ever, to note the context of this verse, in which Paul is warning people to stick to the gospel he has taught them (i.e. that which we read in his epistles) and not be swayed by people who wish to lead them away from the gospel:  “continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”.  Please note that Paul is emphasising firstly, adherence to that which they have already been assured of, and also dependence upon the holy scriptures that they have known since they were children, these scriptures having the capacity to make them, “wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”.  Therefore it is clear that the deceitful people Paul is warning about are those who would distort the Biblical gospel.  I think the above example of Romans 6 being ‘distorted’ by Spencer Kimball is a good case in point.

Kimball quotes the book of Romans again, from Chapter 1, where Paul outlines in great detail how people have turned totally away from God and given themselves over to sin.  It is noteworthy that Kimball is more than happy to use Romans to illustrate the problem of sin, but is equally happy to ignore the solution provided through Christ that Romans contains: “The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”  (Romans 10:8-13)  This is a typical example of how Mormons are made to feel.  As a Mormon, one is made acutely aware of one’s own failings in comparison to the LDS church’s expectations, yet the solution (i.e. Christ) is never truly presented as contained in the Bible.  Therefore, for the Mormon there is no hope, only a wishful thinking that one day they’ll make it and be good enough.

Kimball goes on to quote Revelation 21 where it talks of those who will enter the ‘second death’.  Of course, the description of ‘the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone’ sounds pretty scary. But this chapter of Revelation also talks about, “that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”  So who will be there? The answer:  “there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”  Revelation 20 also adds that there are those for whom ‘the second death’ has no power: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”  And who are these that will reign with Christ?  Those that have given themselves to Him: “ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”  (Romans 8)

Kimball then goes on to list eight more examples from the Bible where sins are listed and/ or described, and then, in case there be any doubt about sin, he lists eighty-nine examples of sinful behaviour.  Of course, this mammoth list saves the ones Mormon culture obsesses about the most until last: sex.  Kimball lists, “masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices.”  This could pretty much be taken to read that, as a Mormon, you are only allowed to acknowledge any sexual urges at the actual moment that you are engaged in sexual intercourse with your spouse (to whom you are eternally married), and this is only acceptable if it is carried out in the conventional manner (oh and don’t forget the instruction that your ‘garments’ must be worn ‘at all times’ in order to show absolute faithfulness and as a sign of the promises you have made!)  OK, so I may be attempting to make some light of the LDS obsession with sexual activity here, but this is partly because I know just how lethal a cocktail it is to have everyday, middle-aged and older men with delusions of godly authority seeing themselves as appointed to pry regularly into the private lives (in excruciating detail) of anyone from the age of 12 and over they believe to under their jurisdiction.  Can you imagine the potential for emotional and psychological damage in such circumstances?  Regular Mormons believe that their eternal destiny is based on their participation in their church, and this participation can be weighed in the hands of their bishops.  And of course the bishops have the right to pry in such detail because leaders like Kimball have gone into such specific detail about acceptable and unacceptable sexual behaviour.  As someone who has experienced this, I am reassured by 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

As I mentioned earlier, Kimball does go on to say that ‘every sin is against God.’  However the remainder of the sentence lets you know that it has been written by a Mormon leader: “for it tends to frustrate the program and purposes of the Almighty’.  Does anyone who really believes themselves to be a follower of Christ actually think that God has His very own ‘program’ or even think in such terms.  Did Jesus ever sit his followers down and say, “OK my disciples, let me explain the program to you.”???

Kimball explains his view on how sin affects the sinner: “it limits his progress and curtails his development”.  Of course, this fits in very well with the notion that Mormons are part of some ‘program’ to become gods.  However, as Christians, we know that sin is a symptom of our fallen nature, that corrupted version of how God intended us to be earlier.  This can only be overcome by Christ.  When we sin as Christians, we put ourselves at a distance from God and we suffer greatly by pushing ourselves away from our Father (for that is who God is to the Christian) but we do not suddenly stop being God’s sons and daughters.  God is faithful, even when we are not.  For the Mormon, sin must be wiped out completely; by the sinner.  How can the sinful one make him or herself pure?  “To follow his example and become as a god, we must attain perfection.”  This an act of self in Mormonism, not an act of God.

Next Kimball quotes various verses which express the notion that only righteousness is acceptable in the Kingdom of God.  This is true, but we are unable to attain this righteousness of our own accord.  The sinner on the cross was certainly not righteous, yet for his acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, Jesus promised him “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.

For Kimball, it all has to come from our own actions: “self-control, self-mastery, can be substituted for the dominion of sin, and the sinner can move by his own agency toward God rather than under the control of sin toward Satan.”  Yet we know that ultimately we are only brought into a right relation with God by grace through faith: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”  Ephesians 2:8-10

Next we see where Jesus finally fits in.  Not as our Saviour, but as our template: “We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God.”  In Mormonism, Jesus was simply on the path that we are now on.  Of course we know however, though Jesus suffered and was tempted, being the ‘Word made flesh’, he was able to be that unblemished Lamb that we cannot be; He was able to be a human with no sin, because he is also God.  Kimball here uses Hebrews 5:8-9 to talk of Jesus being “made perfect”.  The implication Kimball wants us to take from this is that Jesus also had to make himself perfect.  Clearly this is not the meaning.  The verses quoted mention Jesus learning obedience by the things which he suffered.  This meant that he was ‘made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation.’  In other words, Jesus could not have fulfilled his role as Saviour of mankind if he had not demonstrated perfectly his ability to overcome temptation.  This is what is meant by being made perfect, not that Jesus was once less than perfect and had to make himself perfect.

Kimball tries to suggest that we can prove ourselves deserving of salvation: “The dividends from both obedience and repentance amply repay the effort.”  Yet surprisingly, only a few lines further on, he quotes Romans 6:23 which makes it plain that salvation is not something which can be ‘deserved’: “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”.  If only Kimball had built his teachings around verses such as this, instead of insisting that we can earn our way to godhood through self-mastery and self-discipline!

Joseph Fielding Smith

“We should fully and sincerely comprehend the fact that no requirement, request, or commandment made of man by the Father or the Son is given except for the purpose of advancing man on the path of eternal perfection.” (Doctrines of Salvation p.155)

Recently I was listening to a great preach by Mark Driscoll a church leader in Seattle and he said something that got me thinking about Mormonism.

“Do you exist to glorify God, or does God exist to glorify you” (Paraphrase)

he went on to say “Is our greatest need that we should show forth all of our glory or is our greatest true need that God would receive His glory?”

What I want to look at in this post is how does Mormonism take away Gods true place of His glory? And how is anyone missing out by not truly giving God the glory He deserves?

One thing I would say to Christians and Mormons or anyone else reading is do you know that God actually loves Himself more than He loves you? Christ died on the cross to glorify God more than He did it out of love for Humanity, God saves us to glorify Himself, He is all glorious and He knows it.

However please do not think in this post I am saying God does not love Humanity as He does more than any of us could imagine however God is the only being in existence where self seeking is actually good, as His nature and His ways are perfect if He seeks Himself He is actually seeking perfection, if you or I did that we would be seeking an imperfect sinful person.

Some people say is this not arrogance on Gods part to love Himself more than anything? The answer is no it is not, for if He held anything else above Himself He would be committing idolatry, God is glorious more than we could ever imagine and for Him to hold Himself first in His every action is actually the best thing He could so for us and satisfies our true need in life.

Lets move this to the bible. I am going to use the New American Standard version of the bible which is the one I use as it is a bit more clear, however LDS people feel free to follow along with your King James version :)

Isaiah 43:1-7

¹But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel,
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name; you are Mine!
²“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they will not overflow you
When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched,
Nor will the flame burn you.
³“For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I have given Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your place.
⁴“Since you are precious in My sight,
Since you are honored and I love you,
I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
⁵“Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
And gather you from the west.
⁶“I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back ‘
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
⁷Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”

We are precious in His sight and made for His glory!

Jeremiah 13:11

For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the LORD, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise and for glory; but they did not listen.’

Gods desire for the people of Israel was that they would be a people for His praise and glory, however they did not do this, so God sent His son to die for us so that all could be His people, however this goal of a people for His glory has not stopped there.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

If you are a Christian you are a part of this royal priesthood, holy nation a people for His possession so that (meaning this is why the part before is the case) you would proclaim the excellencies of Him, the new testament is littered with hints that we are saved for His glory.

Think of the classic text that Christians use to show that salvation is by grace alone and not works.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

⁹not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

¹⁰For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There is so much more in this text than just we are not saved by works, this text shows that we are saved for His glory, it says we are saved by faith and not of ourselves, meaning we dont even get credit for the faith as it is a gift of God!

Then it says so that no man may boast, this is so important as it says that no Christian can ever look at another less valiant Christian and think to themselves “I am so glad I work harder than that person, my salvation is more secure”. This is not possible as your salvation is not of yourself.

Then v10 turns it around and says you are His workmanship saved for good works! What this is saying is that you cannot take any glory for your works as they have not saved you, however God saves you as a gift by His works so you can then do good works, seems like a bit of a headbender but its all with such a great purpose, God wants us to do works out of love in order to glorify Him, not so that we are doing them in any way to earn our salvation because our salvation is His work.

This is all because we are created for His glory! We will spend eternity glorifying Him, see this picture of heaven in the book of Revelation

Revelation 5:11-13

¹¹Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

¹²saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

¹³And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

Every living thing, it says which is in heaven will be there worshipping Christ, how many is that do you say? The Answer is everyone in heaven will be doing this, if this does not excite you then you need to be born again and come to know Christ, as when you know Him in this life then spending eternity with Him will only be an exciting thought, the Apostle Paul reflects this excellently

Philippians 1:21-23.

²¹For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

²²But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

²³But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

Paul shows here that His only desire is Christ, whether to die and be with Him or to stay in this world and produce fruit for Him, either way its all about Christ.

I hope I have shown that biblically we are created by God for God, we are created by a God who loves Himself above all so that we might love Him above all for eternity, John Piper a great Christian preacher said that “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him”. Nothing else in this world not even good religious works are a patch on truly knowing Christ and bringing Him glory. And He wants you to know Him as closely as possible so you are as satisfied in Him as you can possibly be.

So Mormons going back to the original question are you here to glorify God or is He there to glorify you? What do Mormon texts say?

In Mormon Scripture the book of Moses 1:39 it says this

For behold, this is my ^awork and my ^bglory—to bring to pass the ^cimmortality and ^deternal ^elife of man.

In my experience this is what a Mormon believes that God is there for our good, to help us in our plan of salvation to become a god ourselves (which is what eternal life means in LDS theology) as this is what God went through Himself as a man. So God goes from being an infinite eternal God seeking His own glory to an exalted man whose purpose is to glorify us.

Spencer W Kimball a previous Mormon Prophet said “After death we continue to learn. Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. ‘As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be.‘” (The teachings of Spencer W Kimball p.53)

Thomas Monson Current Mormon Prophet said “It is the celestial glory (godhood) which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned”. (Thomas S. Monson, On the Lord’s Errand: The memoirs of Thomas S. Monson, 1985 p.342)

So this is basically saying we desire godhood, under God but it must be earned. This has been said time and time again and is generally accepted within Mormonism.

The Gods who dwell in the Heaven have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state… they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (The Seer, Jan 1853, p.23 quoted in the Salt Lake City Messenger, Nov. 1994, p.6.)

Which heaven?

So back to the original question are you there to glorify God? Or really is He there to glorify you? if you think Gods purpose is to bring to pass your eternal life then you do not know God at all, the God of the bible is glorious and seeks His own glory and has created us in such a way that this is the only thing that can truly satisfy us, not religion but a relationship with Him. Mormonism does what so many other cults and religions do, this is to minimize God and elevate man, do not stand for it any longer look to the bible and trust in this glorious God!