Well Lynn and Michael Wilder have gone home now after a great speaking tour in the UK. You can catch one of the sessions they did on our podcast here.  They did sessions in Kent, Wimbledon, Bradford and York. I believe in total around 250 people attended all of the sessions.

However while they were here Lynn also recorded an Episode of Unbelievable? With Justin Brierly. This is a really well done show where each week there is a dialogue between a Christian and a non Christian, or sometime in house issues amongst Christians. On this show Lynn has dialogue with a friend of mine Michael Flournoy. He wrote the book A Biblical Defense Of Mormonism, and is an LDS Apologist well experienced in dialoguing with Evangelicals.

You can catch the show on the Unbelievable? Site here, or below. If you don’t already regularly listen to this show, I think it really is the best Apologetics Radio show in the UK and covers a wide variety of fascinating issues. Their conference is actually being held in London next week, for more info on that see here. 

Is the Mormon gospel the Biblical gospel? Lynn Wilder vs Michael Flournoy – Unbelievable?

(left click to listen, right click then save link as to download.)

 As well if you are interested I recorded two episodes of this show a couple of years ago in dialoguing with active LDS member Charles Dayton. You can find those here and here. Also Russ East of our parent ministry Utah Partnerships for Christ, recorded an episode with LDS scholar Brian Hales last year, you can find that here. 

This third chapter is entitled ‘None Righteous, No, Not One’ and its purpose is to make it very plain that we are all sinful.

Spencer Kimball’s first point here is to suggest that, in general, people are far better at recognising the sins of others and the fact that others ought to repent, rather than looking to themselves first. As he says, “Apparently it is much easier to see those [other people’s] sins than our own, and to walk com-placently through life without acknowledging our own need to mend our ways.” I am rather surprised at this statement. Certainly, growing up Mormon, my own experience was of an awareness, perhaps even an unhealthy obsession with, my sins and own unworthiness. For the Mormon, one’s whole life is an ongoing trial and an impossible challenge along a pathway to “mend our ways” to such an extent that one day we can be exalted (i.e. become a god).

Kimball then goes on to quote a series of Bible verses that set out our sinfulness. “There is none that doeth good, no, not one”, “there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not”, “who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from sin?”, etc. There are a couple of other Bible selections made by Kimball in this early part of the chapter but I wish to return to his use of those verses a little later.

After supplementing the Bible verses on our sinfulness with a couple of examples from the Doctrine and Covenants, Kimball adds: “There is never a day in any man’s life when repentance is not essential to his well-being and eternal progress.” Now, whilst I would not wish to belittle the significance of re-pentance at all, I would suggest that it is unbiblical to teach that daily repentance is essential to our eternal progress. Moreover, as many people, myself included, have demonstrated on this site, the Bible doesn’t support this Mormon notion of eternal progress in any case. Our repentance is a perma-nent choice we have made, and are continuing to make in our lives; a turning towards the Lord and a turning away from sinful actions. We are turning to the Lord as a response to his sacrifice for our sins. This is a gift that we have gratefully accepted, in the knowledge that, ‘There is none that doeth good, no, not one’ and also understanding that, ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:’ (Ephesians 2:8) Clearly, if someone claims to be a Christian but is never brought to a position where they are asking prayerfully for forgiveness for their sins, you have got to question their original claim. But by the same token, a daily act of repentance is not the ultimate solution to some sort of eternal outcome. What would Kimball say in the case of an individual who had sinned after doing their daily repenting, but died before the next time that they ought to do some more ‘daily repenting’? Where does the Mormon God draw the line?

Kimball states later on that, “Repentance is for every soul who has not yet reached perfection.” This leads one to reflect back on the case that Kimball made so emphatically earlier, when, using Bible verses, he demonstrated that every single person is sinful. None is righteous. So where does he get this idea that we can reach perfection? The Bible has something to say about this, but it is a very different notion to the Mormon idea of perfection being when we become gods. One of the Bible verses Kimball quoted was Romans 5:12. In Romans 5 we are given God’s real view of our sinfulness and how we can be restored to how we ought to be. Kimball quotes verse 12 to demonstrate that all have sinned, but it should come as no surprise, given that he is presenting Mormon teaching in his book and not Bible teaching, that he neglects to consider verses 17-19, which state: “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” It is important to remember that humankind was made in God’s image and God saw that it was good. For God to call his work ‘good’, we know that is saying something! Yet humankind needed to be made right with God once more, after ‘the Fall’ and it is through Christ that this takes place. That is what Romans 5 is telling us. We do not become sinless by ridding ourselves of our sins. As the Bible states, none is righteous. The Bible tells us here in Romans that, “by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Note here, be made righteous, not ‘make themselves righteous’. So perfection in Biblical terms is being ‘made righteous’. The idea is that God looks at those who are saved and sees the righteousness of the only one who truly is righteous, our Lord.
Kimball goes on to look at the life of Joseph Smith as someone who had to acknowledge and confess his own sins, the implication being that if someone as great as a chosen prophet had to work at over-coming sin, then we must also do the same. In this part Kimball uses the words of Smith himself, words well-known to Mormons: “In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature.” Kimball describes this and the rest of the account that this quote comes from ‘as a simple and honest confession’, but could it not also come across as someone trying to make excuses or minimising their own sinfulness? You’re either sinful or not according to the Bible. Surely, when making a confession, a man of God should come across as having a bit more humility. Interestingly, in this section about Joseph Smith and the importance of his efforts to lead an exemplary life, Kimball quotes D & C 3:4, “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal de-sires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.” I find this a fascinating quote be-cause, with hindsight one could see this as Joseph Smith condemning himself, since there are well-known quotations where Joseph Smith boasts of his achievements, even putting himself above Jesus. Of course, as well as this, Smith followed ‘after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires’, this proving eventually to be his final downfall.

In this section, Kimball illustrates well the sense of ‘fear of failure’ that many Mormons feel. He says, “Every person is subject to error if he is not always watchful, for victory over Satan is attained only by constant vigilance.” What a statement for a leader (who later became a prophet) of the one true Christian church to make. We achieve victory over Satan only by constant vigilance. Really? Doesn’t Jesus fit into this picture somewhere?

Before concluding chapter 3, Kimball wants us to know that he has seen an awful lot of Mormons and wants them all to know that he has spotted them doing an awful of naughty things! He takes up five paragraphs, roughly a quarter of the chapter, detailing many examples of behaviour by LDS members that he doesn’t like. There are about fifteen sentences in this section beginning with, “I find”, “I saw”, “I have seen”, or “There are those/ some” where he outlines actions such as being unloving parents or spouses, gossiping and divisive church members, people speaking unkindly to others and questioning the motives of each other and church leaders. Considering the fact that this chapter begins with an important reminder to focus on one’s own need for repentance rather than looking at others, this lengthy bout of finger-pointing seems to me quite distasteful and hypocritical.

I wanted to end this review with another stark example of Kimball’s technique of pulling Bible verses out of their context and throwing them into his own context to make a completely different point. As I stated earlier, Kimball begins the chapter talking about ‘our own need to mend our ways’ and uses many Bible verses to demonstrate that all of us are sinners. The first example he gives is two verses from 1 John 1, which are presented like this, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” Sounds fair enough right? But of course check the verses used in brackets: verse 8 and verse 10. How about looking directly at 1 John 1 and reading verses 7 – 10 inclusive this time? “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
So what has been removed in Kimball’s quote? Well, the gospel in a nutshell basically. God is faithful, just and forgives our sins, and cleanses us from all sin/ unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus. In Kimball’s teaching we must mend our own ways in order to reach perfection (which means becoming a god). This is another gospel. This is the ‘impossible gospel’ of the LDS church and it is not based around what the Bible tells us about sin and how God wishes to deal with sin. As Proverbs 20:9 puts it, “Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from sin?”

Kimball goes on to make the point that when we sin we are serving Satan.  In making his point there follows an excellent example of Mormon leaders using the Bible to teach what they want and not letting the Bible speak for itself.  Kimball quotes Romans 6, but look at the part he has left out (I have added it back in in italics):  “Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield

yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you:  for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”  The Bible here is clearly teaching a very different view to that which Kimball is trying to present.  Kimball is trying to say that we must serve God and avoid sin at all costs so that God will accept us.  But the quote, in its context, is saying that those who are under grace are not subject to these demands, because such people have accepted the saving work of Christ.  The point being made by Paul is that such people must not then think it is fine to sin, you must instead serve Him in whose righteousness we share: “Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”  It is because of the deceptive use scripture such as this that many of us work to expose Mormonism as a manipulator of the true gospel.

Moving on through the chapter, Kimball attempts to categorise sins:  “Sins may be classified in many categories. They range from the simple improprieties and indiscretions to the shedding of innocent blood and the sin against the Holy Ghost. There are sins against ourselves, sins against our loved ones, sins against our fellowmen, sins against our communities, sins against the Church, sins against humanity. There are sins which are known to the world and others which are so carefully hidden that the sinner is

the only mortal being who knows of the error.”  Surely the sentence missing at the end of this paragraph would be: “Yet no matter what the sin is, all are sins against God, since sin is when we don’t live up to the image of God that He created in us.”  This is surely the key characteristic of sin, that we have become corrupted from what God intended for us and as a corrupt version of God’s ideal for us, we are therefore incapable of ‘de-corrupting’ ourselves.  Of course, this is not Kimball’s emphasis.  Later, Kimball does say, “every sin is against God” but I will respond to that in its context when I reach that point in the chapter.

Amongst the many examples Kimball provides of scriptural examples or descriptions of sin, we have a quote from 2 Timothy 3, which includes a phrase Mormons love to use in describing traditional Christianity: “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away”.  It is important, as ever, to note the context of this verse, in which Paul is warning people to stick to the gospel he has taught them (i.e. that which we read in his epistles) and not be swayed by people who wish to lead them away from the gospel:  “continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”.  Please note that Paul is emphasising firstly, adherence to that which they have already been assured of, and also dependence upon the holy scriptures that they have known since they were children, these scriptures having the capacity to make them, “wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”.  Therefore it is clear that the deceitful people Paul is warning about are those who would distort the Biblical gospel.  I think the above example of Romans 6 being ‘distorted’ by Spencer Kimball is a good case in point.

Kimball quotes the book of Romans again, from Chapter 1, where Paul outlines in great detail how people have turned totally away from God and given themselves over to sin.  It is noteworthy that Kimball is more than happy to use Romans to illustrate the problem of sin, but is equally happy to ignore the solution provided through Christ that Romans contains: “The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”  (Romans 10:8-13)  This is a typical example of how Mormons are made to feel.  As a Mormon, one is made acutely aware of one’s own failings in comparison to the LDS church’s expectations, yet the solution (i.e. Christ) is never truly presented as contained in the Bible.  Therefore, for the Mormon there is no hope, only a wishful thinking that one day they’ll make it and be good enough.

Kimball goes on to quote Revelation 21 where it talks of those who will enter the ‘second death’.  Of course, the description of ‘the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone’ sounds pretty scary. But this chapter of Revelation also talks about, “that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”  So who will be there? The answer:  “there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”  Revelation 20 also adds that there are those for whom ‘the second death’ has no power: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”  And who are these that will reign with Christ?  Those that have given themselves to Him: “ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”  (Romans 8)

Kimball then goes on to list eight more examples from the Bible where sins are listed and/ or described, and then, in case there be any doubt about sin, he lists eighty-nine examples of sinful behaviour.  Of course, this mammoth list saves the ones Mormon culture obsesses about the most until last: sex.  Kimball lists, “masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices.”  This could pretty much be taken to read that, as a Mormon, you are only allowed to acknowledge any sexual urges at the actual moment that you are engaged in sexual intercourse with your spouse (to whom you are eternally married), and this is only acceptable if it is carried out in the conventional manner (oh and don’t forget the instruction that your ‘garments’ must be worn ‘at all times’ in order to show absolute faithfulness and as a sign of the promises you have made!)  OK, so I may be attempting to make some light of the LDS obsession with sexual activity here, but this is partly because I know just how lethal a cocktail it is to have everyday, middle-aged and older men with delusions of godly authority seeing themselves as appointed to pry regularly into the private lives (in excruciating detail) of anyone from the age of 12 and over they believe to under their jurisdiction.  Can you imagine the potential for emotional and psychological damage in such circumstances?  Regular Mormons believe that their eternal destiny is based on their participation in their church, and this participation can be weighed in the hands of their bishops.  And of course the bishops have the right to pry in such detail because leaders like Kimball have gone into such specific detail about acceptable and unacceptable sexual behaviour.  As someone who has experienced this, I am reassured by 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

As I mentioned earlier, Kimball does go on to say that ‘every sin is against God.’  However the remainder of the sentence lets you know that it has been written by a Mormon leader: “for it tends to frustrate the program and purposes of the Almighty’.  Does anyone who really believes themselves to be a follower of Christ actually think that God has His very own ‘program’ or even think in such terms.  Did Jesus ever sit his followers down and say, “OK my disciples, let me explain the program to you.”???

Kimball explains his view on how sin affects the sinner: “it limits his progress and curtails his development”.  Of course, this fits in very well with the notion that Mormons are part of some ‘program’ to become gods.  However, as Christians, we know that sin is a symptom of our fallen nature, that corrupted version of how God intended us to be earlier.  This can only be overcome by Christ.  When we sin as Christians, we put ourselves at a distance from God and we suffer greatly by pushing ourselves away from our Father (for that is who God is to the Christian) but we do not suddenly stop being God’s sons and daughters.  God is faithful, even when we are not.  For the Mormon, sin must be wiped out completely; by the sinner.  How can the sinful one make him or herself pure?  “To follow his example and become as a god, we must attain perfection.”  This an act of self in Mormonism, not an act of God.

Next Kimball quotes various verses which express the notion that only righteousness is acceptable in the Kingdom of God.  This is true, but we are unable to attain this righteousness of our own accord.  The sinner on the cross was certainly not righteous, yet for his acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, Jesus promised him “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.

For Kimball, it all has to come from our own actions: “self-control, self-mastery, can be substituted for the dominion of sin, and the sinner can move by his own agency toward God rather than under the control of sin toward Satan.”  Yet we know that ultimately we are only brought into a right relation with God by grace through faith: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”  Ephesians 2:8-10

Next we see where Jesus finally fits in.  Not as our Saviour, but as our template: “We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God.”  In Mormonism, Jesus was simply on the path that we are now on.  Of course we know however, though Jesus suffered and was tempted, being the ‘Word made flesh’, he was able to be that unblemished Lamb that we cannot be; He was able to be a human with no sin, because he is also God.  Kimball here uses Hebrews 5:8-9 to talk of Jesus being “made perfect”.  The implication Kimball wants us to take from this is that Jesus also had to make himself perfect.  Clearly this is not the meaning.  The verses quoted mention Jesus learning obedience by the things which he suffered.  This meant that he was ‘made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation.’  In other words, Jesus could not have fulfilled his role as Saviour of mankind if he had not demonstrated perfectly his ability to overcome temptation.  This is what is meant by being made perfect, not that Jesus was once less than perfect and had to make himself perfect.

Kimball tries to suggest that we can prove ourselves deserving of salvation: “The dividends from both obedience and repentance amply repay the effort.”  Yet surprisingly, only a few lines further on, he quotes Romans 6:23 which makes it plain that salvation is not something which can be ‘deserved’: “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”.  If only Kimball had built his teachings around verses such as this, instead of insisting that we can earn our way to godhood through self-mastery and self-discipline!

Often sites like this spend time talking about why Mormons are not Christian, and this site of course does spend a lot of time looking at areas in Mormonism that Christians would generally disagree with, and will unashamedly carry on doing so.

However I thought it would be helpful to lay out what a Christian is, without specifically relating it to Mormonism. This will hopefully speak for itself in showing why this issue comes up so often, as ever I would love to hear your thoughts.

I will do this by focusing on these areas:

We are formed or created for His glory, we even see examples in the Old Testament that when God was merciful to His people, this again was primarily for His glory.

Isaiah 48:9-11

For My name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of My praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you but not like silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For My own sake, for My own sake I do it,
for how should My name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.

For God, the upholding of His name and the declaration of His glory is more significant than anything. I think the reason Christ came and did what He did for us, again was primarily to uphold the glory of God, so that we as forgiven sinners might begin to glorify Him and live in our created purpose. We are entirely secondary in this equation. However we are also created in such a way that we find our complete satisfaction and completion in life from union with Him.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

There is nothing in life that compares to union with God, not spouse not kids, not family not friends not objects not anything compares with knowing God. We see Paul’s heart cry in Philippians 1:21-24

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Another significant issue dealt with really well by Shazaloo on Youtube.

Hello all, in the last week I had an article posted on the Baptist Times about my ministry in general, and an outreach opportunity to Mormons coming up in the next year. Please check out this article here

Interestingly since then on the Mormon Mommy Writers Blog a response has been written to the Baptist times, by a Christian Hellen Riebold with a forward by Anna Buttimore, LDS member who is a contributor on this blog. They have recently written a book together called The Saved Saint, a fictional book looking at what happens when an Ex Mormon Missionary becomes a Christian. You can find this response to my article here 

In this post I am going to specifically address Hellen Riebold’s comments, to make full sense of what I say next I would suggest you read My article, and Hellen Riebold’s response to it.

Dear Hellen.

I appreciate your response was directed to the Editor of the Baptist Times and not me, but with it being about my article I wanted to share some thoughts.

Firstly thank you for sharing your background, and also a clear heart for the Mormon people. I genuinely believe that you wrote what you wrote out of respect and love for a good friend and a great set of people you have clearly had a lot of interaction with.

I would firstly like to say that I do what I do in terms of seeking to witness to Mormons out of a genuine love and a mass of passion for this people. I have put many hours, many pounds and a lot of effort into seeking to understand the Mormon faith, and communicate to them what I believe that they are missing, which is the Biblical True gospel. In my view it is not loving to tell people who are in a state of being dead in their sins that they are going to be ok, people who are in the first class cabin of a sinking ship with no knowledge of it sinking are still in great need of being told of their situation.

Which moves me into your points, I am going to address a few of them and try and explain myself further.

You said this:

It is this respect that has led to my disappointment that you would be prepared to print such an outdated and one-sided article as that titled Evangelising Mormons by Bobby Gilpin, printed on 17th October.  The arguments he uses against The Church of the Latter Day Saints are outdated and ill researched. President Snow served from 1898 to 1901, well over 100 years ago, I do not feel it is fair to try to influence people’s opinions on any organisation or denomination by quoting such historical leaders, I am sure I would not have to look too hard to find many other Christian quotes from the period with all kinds of opinions from a wide range of subjects we no longer agree on. Quite apart from anything else our own doctrine says that God became Man, he was called Jesus.

With respect from reading this I would have to say that your research on Mormonism must be very limited to make this statement, you compare the words of Lorenzo Snow to just the words of any other Christian leader. Do you not know that the Mormon Church sees Lorenzo Snow and every other “Prophet” they have had from Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson today are God’s mouthpieces to the world?

Ezra Taft Benson another previous Mormon Prophet gave a talk called “The Fourteen fundamentals of following the Prophet” when He was an Apostle. (please note the link is to LDS.org the official Mormon website. As a side note this talk was reiterated at the October 2010 General conference in 2 sessions. I was personally there for one of them.)

In this talk Benson makes these points.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

For any who don’t know by Standard works he means all of the Mormon Scriptures. The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the pearl of great price. But also the Bible.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

12th Mormon President (and prophet) Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

To members of the Mormon Church, their Prophets are as significant and authoritative as Isaiah, Moses or Jeremiah, so the time difference of 100 years is relatively small compared to them for us, and so therefore does not have to mean at all that Lorenzo Snows (5th Mormon Prophet) Couplet:

As man now is God once was, As God now is man may become.

is by NO means no longer valid.  To quote Lorenzo snow more fully:

President Snow later recalled, “the Spirit of the
Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were
opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and
astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following
couplet which expresses the revelation, as it was shown me. . . .
“As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.”

As far as Mormonism goes, Gods one true Prophet on the face of the earth got this by revelation. I hope you will see by now that your analogy of Christian leaders saying things that we do not agree with is utterly false on two levels.

1, We do not hold Christian leaders this highly, they are subject to scripture NOT above it.

2, This Mormon Prophet here is not saying something outdated or irrelevant to Mormonism, its massively relevant and actually quite current. You mentioned that I used an old and outdated quote, here are some more up to date ones.

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith

“Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:98).

12th President Spencer W. Kimball

“Man is created in the image of God. He is a god in embryo. He has the seeds of godhood within him and he can, if he is normal, pick himself up by his bootstraps and literally move himself from where he is to where he knows he should be” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 28).

To finish this point I would refer you to this link

http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36787_eng.pdf

This is an official LDS manual called Teachings of Presidents  of the Church Lorenzo Snow, if you look at page 83 you will see this quote very positively reinforced. The manual is dated 2012.

Moving on to my next bold from above, you said:

Our own doctrine says that God became Man, he was called Jesus.

The Biblical teaching is that Jesus was in very nature God, and did not hold on to his EQUALITY with God but emptied Himself taking the form of a man. (Philippians 2:5-11) this is called humility in this passage. We also see in scripture that from Everlasting to everlasting God is God (Psalm 90:2) that there is no other God (Isaiah 44:6) and that our God does not even know of any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8) so for you to use the incarnation of Christ as a justification for the entirely unbiblical view that Mormonism holds, that our God was once a man and so therefore must have had a God Himself (and the cycle goes on) is problematic in the least. Just because Mormons often say they do not know about their heavenly Fathers Father, that does not mean for a second that many of them do not believe Him to have one.

Many Mormons believe that our heavenly Father was once a sinful man, this is a natural belief to hold in light of Lorenzo Snows words, but fatally untrue.

Brigham Young 2nd Mormon Prophet said:

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been once a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed” (Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

Ok moving on, you next said this:

The quote given from The book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25:23 ‘For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.’

is actually akin in meaning to the Biblical Isaiah 64:6

‘All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.’

It is basically saying that no matter how brilliant we are we still need grace in order to be saved.

Yes you are dead on that we need grace to be saved, but in saying that you have missed the point I was making, we are saved entirely 100% by Grace, and by none of our works. Isaiah 64:6 shows that in our sinful state our works can do nothing, 2 Nephi 25:23 blows this biblical teaching out of the water and says actually our works do count towards our salvation. Romans 11:6 leaves no room for this:

 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Its one or the other, we are NOT saved by both.

You next say this:

My understanding of  President Spencer W Kimball’s rather damming statement that Mr Gilpin quotes is in fact the LDS equivalent to our own denomination’s discussions on James, one cannot simply live as you like, sinning with impunity saying ‘its ok God forgives me anyway.’ 

So going back to this quote Spencer Kimball Said

‘One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God.’

You then say that this is simply our version of James, who says that faith without works is dead, and that our faith MUST be evidenced by works. Sadly I shake my head at this point and wonder about your theology. James does not deny Paul’s teaching of salvation by grace, instead he merely shows that true faith that has produced true regeneration, and has produced a true new creature in Christ as 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us, must produce good works, otherwise this faith is dead, not real, and not saving anyone. This does not for a second deny salvation by grace alone.

Jesus Himself when presented by a peasant woman’s faith says to her “Your faith has saved you go in peace.” (Luke 7:50) salvation is by faith alone, but there is no room for people acknowledging Him with their lips but then having no life change.

Interestingly in the Same book by Spencer W Kimball (Miracle of Forgiveness) that the quote above came from we see this story:

Years ago, a missionary in South America wrote a long letter of confession. He had
broken the law of chastity. No one but the young girl and himself knew of the
transgression, but he had promptly gone to his mission president and confessed it in total.
This missionary had been a member of the Church but a few months, and his many
years of adulthood while “of the world” had produced a weakness hard to overcome. He
quoted, “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” He did not excuse himself, nor claim
any special immunities, nor rely on extenuating circumstances. He said: “I knew I had to
pay the full penalty, I knew that in life or death I had to answer for the sin. I wanted to get
it over with and be on my way to eventual forgiveness. I would rather confess, take my
punishment, and get back as soon as possible on the road to forgiveness, and I did not
want my eternity cluttered with these blemishes.”
He was excommunicated from the Church. After what seemed an eternity to him,
through his faithfulness and repentance he was baptized and finally his priesthood and temple blessings were restored to him. He found peace through complete repentance of which his total, voluntary confession was a vital part.

We see here a young man that made a mistake and was open about it and as a result was excommunicated from the Church and he had to prove his way back in through the Mormon repentance process, which is not at all simply between him and God. But what did Jesus do with a sexual sinner?

John 8:1-11

8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

A different gospel if ever there was one.

Ok you next say:

One of my closest friends is a member of The Church of the Latter Day Saints and, you can be sure, I looked carefully into their doctrine to see if she needed to be ‘saved’ however, given that all Churches have some incorrect doctrines as an inevitable consequence of the fall, I took my criteria from Romans 10:9-10:-

‘If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. ‘

That’s great to hear that you have a close friend in the LDS church, they are great people and I always enjoy my time with them, and I have spent a lot with them in the past. However for you to use this verse alone as the criteria again shows a lack of Biblical context in your understanding.

Here is something else James said:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19)

Its not enough just to believe in someone called Jesus. Salvation is to know God and His Son (John 17:3) the God of Mormonism is an exalted man, the Jesus of Mormonism is the first born Spirit child of our heavenly Father and Mother. This is not the God of the bible, this is not a Jesus that saves. Galatians 1:8 says:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Jesus says in John 8:24 that unless you believe I AM HE you will die in your sins. You may know that this is referring back to Gods answer to who He is in Exodus 3:14. Jesus is identifying Himself as God and saying we need to believe that is who He is. Is the Mormon God this God?

Mormonism is not simply Christianity with a few tweaks, it is a religion with a different God, and with an entirely different salvation that is based on works, we do our best and Jesus makes up the rest as I have heard Mormon Missionaries say in the past.

So to sum up I would suggest you ask your Mormon friend a few more questions, Mormonism is nowhere near as blunt about its beliefs today as it once was, this also seems to be the case with many of its members too. (I wonder why Anna Buttimore put your letter to the Baptist times on her blog without correcting you on her understanding of Mormon Prophets) That does not however mean that those beliefs have changed or gone.

I will continue to devote much time to witnessing to those people that God has called me to reach, as I think 14 million Mormons are worth it,

For I can testify about them (Mormons) that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. (Romans 10:2)

Thank you for reading, I may not have convinced you with these points, but I hope you can see that I have done my homework and that this is a labour of love and not hate or anger.

Bobby.