So really, though they are aspects of the mormon church i like …… i would never praise a man who hurt so many people ….

And, as a woman, am i not an “helpmeet”….. as opposed to a human being deserving of all the good treatment, full representation and equal rights as men …

As ever feel free to comment on what I said, bless you mate good to know you are keeping an eye on my blog

You adamantly insist that according to LDS doctrine it is. I’ve explained as clearly as I can what exactly it means to have faith in God’s prophets in the LDS context, but I’m disappointed to discover that you basically have ignored that and instead opted to continue fighting a straw man of your own creation. Please review my last post for that information. I don’t think you’ve actually addressed anything I said in that post (except for the bit about the 4th Article of Faith, which response was a distortion of the facts).

I earlier said, “The only difference between us is that your prophets are long dead, and ours exist in recent memory. You are just as dependent on prophets as we are, and you exercise the *exact* same type and amount of faith in those prophets as Mormons do.”

I’d like to hear your thoughts on that. Are you required to have faith in God’s prophets, in any sense, in order to be saved? The unavoidable answer is YES.

I feel that 99% of your post was a typical anti-Mormon Evangelical distortion of LDS doctrine, what with the pasting of mined quotes ripped from their context. I’m not going to waste my evening responding to it all. I’m told that in an upcoming post Bobby will be exploring the concept of salvation in LDS doctrine, at which time we might return to the topics that you’ve raised.

I already pointed out in my initial comment that Mormons do not hold Joseph Smith on the same level a Jesus Christ and haven’t asserted otherwise. But the point is that, faith in Christ is not sufficient for salvation according to Mormon beliefs and doctrines.

You point to the Fourth Article of Faith to show that Mormonism teaches that Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. That’s not really what the Articles of Faith say, however.

The Fourth Article of Faith states:

“We believe that the first PRINCIPLES AND ORDINANCES of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

So, the Fourth Article of Faith does not state that faith in Jesus Christ is the way to receive salvation or Eternal Life (set aside the Mormon distinctions between Salvation and Eternal Life for now). Faith in Jesus Christ is one of the FIRST PRINCIPLES of the LDS Gospel.

It is the Third Article of Faith that defines the way to salvation:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, BY OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL.”

Note that it does not state that salvation is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation, instead is “through the Atonement of Christ . . . . BY OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL.”

As is made plain in the Articles of Faith, salvation and eternal life do not come by faith is Jesus Christ, according to Mormon doctrine. Yes, faith in Jesus Christ is part of the equation (and maybe a very important part of it – it is one of the first principles) but it is not the sole requirement to receive eternal life.

In addition to “by obedience to the laws and ordinances . . . “, the Book of Mormon adds: It is “by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.” (2 Nephi 25:23). (Grace, in Mormon doctrine, is purely conditional – according to Mormon Belief, Grace is not a gift from God. Instead Grace is essentially a “reward” that is earned by perfect obedience and our 100% effort “after all we can do”.)

So what then are the “laws and ordinances of the Gospel” and the “all we can do” that are required, according to the Mormon teachings (sufficient to obtain eternal life – the highest degree of glory – the Celestial Kingdom)? They are: Faith (in Jesus Christ, God, in Joseph Smith and all succeeding prophets, in the Mormon Church itself), repentance, baptism, confirmation, receiving the priesthood (if you are a male), receiving a temple endowment, receiving a temple marriage [and, ultimately, entereing into plural marriage, if you look at D&C 132 and the declarations of Brigham Young and other LDS leaders – though the Church does downplay that in public now], paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, keeping the Sabbath day, and keeping all other commands of the church. Certainly, there is much more in this list of Mormon requisites for salvation/eternal life than faith in Jesus Christ.

To illustrate: when the LDS convert baptismal candidate comes in for his/her requisite baptismal interview, is the question going to be “do you believe in Jesus Christ and look to Him as the sole source of life and salvation? Have you invited Jesus to be Lord of your life?” No. “Do you believe in Jesus Christ?” will certainly be one of the questions. But in addition, you will be asked if you believe that the LDS Church is the one and only true church that has been restored to the earth through the prophet Joseph Smith. You will be asked whether you believe that the current President of the LDS church is a prophet of God. You will be asked if you accept and commit to living the law of tithing, the law of chastity, the word of wisdom, keeping the Sabbath day, etc.

If you can’t pass the interview, you cannot be baptized and there is no salvation for that individual (unless they can come back and pass the interview at a later date). And lets not forget that baptism (and confirmation) is only the first of the requisite ordinances for entry into the Celestial Kingdom. There must also be receipt of the priesthood (for males), endowment in the temple and temple marriage to reach the highest degrees of the Celestial Kingdom. These steps require a whole additional set of requisites and interviews to pass.

Even equipped with the necessary signs, tokens and key words from the temple endowment that one must have to be able execute to pass by the angels that stand as sentinels to gain entry into the kingdom, according to the prophet Brigham Young, everyone must have the stamp of approval from Joseph Smith prior to entry into the Kingdom. Indeed, Joseph declared that he will be a God to us – and Brigham Young confirmed that we will look to Joseph as a God.

So maybe the faith that Mormons must put in Joseph Smith is not the same salvic faith as the faith required in Jesus Christ – but the results are that, according to Mormon doctrine, “ain’t nobody gettin’ into the Celestial Kingdom without accepting and believing in Joseph Smith. Ain’t nobody gettin’ in without Joseph’s consent.” And, if you believe your prophets, Joseph will be a God to you. Peter, James or John never declared that they we would look to them as Gods. John never said, there is no salvation without believing in Peter. Neither Peter nor any of Christ’s apostles ever made any false prophesies. None of them married other men’s wives. The parallel is not really the same, rather a smokescreen.

If you want to believe in Mormonism, fine and dandy. That’s up to you – and up to everyone else to make own choice. But the point is, Mormonism is very different from Christianity. It is very different from the gospel that Christ and His apostles taught.
Christ’s apostles made clear the standard for discerning truth:

“[B]ut there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:7-8

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” 2 Corinthians 11: 3-4

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:13

So what gospel did Christ and His apostles preach?

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only on, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. . . .
I AM THE DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I AM come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:1;9-10

“[I]f you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10
“[W]hat must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED . . .” Acts 16:30-31

“[K]now this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is ” ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. SALVATION IS FOUND IN NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12

So, is the forgoing consistent with the message of Mormonism?

The Mormon Church declares:

[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)

“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men…. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)

There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670)

“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.” (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155)

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, “This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. IT is the way, the truth, and the life” (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

When Joseph Smith was asked ‘Will everybody be damned, but Mormons’? [Smith replied] ‘Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

“This is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ according to the word of revelation [D&C 1:30]. Here lies the truth. Here lies the priesthood. HOLD TO THE CHURCH. Do not ever lose sight of the fact that THE CHURCH MUST EVER REMAIN PREEMINENT IN YOUR LIVES if you are going to be happy as the years pass. Never let yourselves be found in the position of fighting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You cling to IT and be faithful to IT. You uphold and sustain IT. You teach ITS DOCTRINE and LIVE BY IT. And I do not hesitate to say that your lives will be the richer and the happier because of that. You cannot find happiness fighting the work of God. Those who have done so have gone down to a dismal end” (Gordon B. Hinkley, Ricks College regional conference, Rexburg, Idaho, 29 Oct. 1995).

“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206)

Whether Mormonism be Another Gospel, let everyone learn of it and decide for themselves. If Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were false prophets, this is a very serious issue. Truth does not come from false prophets and false revelations heralded as scripture. Good fruit does not grow from a corrupt tree. It only becomes “the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture.” Which is exactly what Mormonism is.

You can mince words all you want, try to take people’s eyes off the real ball all you want, and you can even be offended all you want (though none is intended). The facts speak for themselves.

I’m over and out on this topic (already spent far more time on it than originally intended).

Rob,
I don’t believe there is any false dichotomy presented. It is the faith in Christ alone that brings Salvation/Eternal Life. Faith in the prophet, does not bring salvation. Yes, a prophet may be a messenger and deliverer of God’s word. If the prophet’s word/message is in fact God’s, then, by all means, we should listen to that prophet. But the important question is, whether that prophet’s message is of God or of the man himself.

This is what every Latter Day Saint should be asking themselves. There have been so many absurd and off the wall things said by LDS prophets. I don’t buy the “oh, well he was just speaking as a man not the prophet when he said that.” Or “it was just his opinion.” Are you kidding me? Let’s take the Adam/god doctrine for example. If it was just Brigham Young’s “opinion” why on earth would he preach that from the pulpit for more than 20 years? Especially when he had said “from the pulpit” that he hasn’t yet sent out anything to the children of men that they may not call scripture.

“The Word preached by Christ and His apostles is the declared Standard by which all truth should be judged – you can equivocate about the bible, belittle it, minimize it, say its corrupted – but at the end of the day, you either accept it or reject it.”

This is what ultimately led me out. I never did read and study the Bible the way I should have as a mormon. I would look up things that I thought confirmed my mormon beliefs, but never really studied it. Why? Because I was led to believe that it wasn’t reliable. It has been translated so many times and let’s not forget about those Monks who changed doctrine. I felt it would be a waste of my time and besides, I wasn’t as smart about it as the LDS leaders (past and present) so how was I to know which part was translated correctly? Best to just follow the prophet.

Thanks for your remarks. I find a number of items to take issue with, but in the interest of focusing our discussion on the topic at hand (the status of Joseph Smith in Mormonism) I’d like to comment on only what I think are the most relevant parts of your remarks. I realize that you have reasons for considering Joseph to be a false prophet, but I hope we can isolate that debate from the present one.

You have noted that “It is the faith in Christ alone that brings Salvation/Eternal Life. Faith in the prophet, does not bring salvation.” Well, of course that is true. And I don’t think it is possible to argue that Mormonism teaches anything different. You know very well that the fourth Article of Faith in Mormonism very clearly states that the first principle of the gospel is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” Keep in mind, the kind of faith we are talking about is faith in his salvific power, faith in his ability to redeem mankind, faith in his awesome power of creation and re-creation. These are the things we put our faith in that lead to salvation.

This is a totally different league from the type of “faith” that we are required to have in God’s prophets. We aren’t trusting in their ability to redeem us from the fall, or to atone for our sins, or to comfort us in our most desperate hour. Instead, we are simply having “faith” that their message *about Christ* is true. We can’t know about Christ unless there is a prophet to tell us, and we can’t accept that message unless we first exercise a bit of “faith” that the prophet is genuine. But let’s not equivocate and confuse the two types of “faith” we are talking about. Mormons don’t put faith in Joseph Smith in any way that is comparable to the faith they put in Jesus Christ.

Now, as I see it, mainstream Christianity is in the exact same situation as Mormonism. We view Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Thomas Monson, etc., as messengers of God who deliver God’s words to us. We have to exercise a small degree of “faith” that these really are God’s prophets. You view Peter, John, Paul, etc., as messengers of God who deliver God’s words to us (incidentally, so do Mormons). You have to exercise a small degree of “faith” that these really are God’s prophets. The only difference between us is that your prophets are long dead, and ours exist in recent memory. You are just as dependent on prophets as we are, and you exercise the *exact* same type and amount of faith in those prophets as Mormons do.

It is false and unfair to characterize the Mormon sentiment towards Joseph Smith as being anywhere near “faith unto salvation”. It is offensive to me because it fails to recognize the supreme place that Christ holds in my heart. He alone is my savior.

I don’t believe there is any false dichotomy presented. It is the faith in Christ alone that brings Salvation/Eternal Life. Faith in the prophet, does not bring salvation. Yes, a prophet may be a messenger and deliverer of God’s word. If the prophet’s word/message is in fact God’s, then, by all means, we should listen to that prophet. But the important question is, whether that prophet’s message is of God or of the man himself.

The unique thing with Mormonism (unlike any other single prophet or apostle in the bible) is that EVERYTHING hinges on Joseph Smith (and Brigham Young) – because it is so fundamentally different than what any other prophet or apostle preached in the past. And I agree, if the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (you can’t have a true church without Brigham Young being a true prophet as well) were true prophets of God, because of what they preached, you cannot reject it and receive salvation. There are no two ways about it. Either they were true prophets of God and what they taught is true – or it is a massive lie and an abomination to God. This is the case, because, if what they taught is true, eternal life can indeed only be achieved by acceptance of and strict adherence to all of the principles, commandments and ordinances required in Mormonism for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. If you miss any part of it, you’re not getting into the door to God’s Kingdom. So, yes, this is serious stuff.

Not intending to create a whole different line of discussion, but I’m sure you’re familiar with the biblical test of prophet:

“But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Deuteronomy 18:20-22. (in fact, the messenger should be shot if he be a false prophet)

Jerimiah 28:9 also tells us that: “when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.”

Did Joseph give prophesies that did not come true? Certainly, he did on more than one occasion. (yes, I know those unfulfilled prophesies are explained away by church apologists – but, in my opinion, those explanations are stretched beyond the bounds of reason – but let everyone examine them and judge for themselves).

In addition, Christ, in warning of false prophets also declared that “by their (the prophets’) fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:15-16. We receive Christ’s warning of false prophets and apostles that would come in the last days more than once, so, obviously, he thought it was a big issue. Christ’s words insist on an examination of the man himself (no, perfection is not the standard – a man is a man and will always be imperfect, but the fruits of that man are definitely at issue).

There are many items of Joseph’s actions/fruits that can and should be looked at. A simple quick example, when considering this aspect: Is a man who marries other men’s wives in secret and lies about it demonstrative of the fruits of a prophet of God (especially, when claiming the right by direct revelation from God)? What about a prophet who changes his own revelations? What about a prophet who changes and adds to the bible itself (JST)? (yeah, I know – nothing new here for you)

Beyond failed prophesies and fruits, when the alleged prophet’s words are pitted against God’s word the red light should be on. As already discussed, the mantra is clear “any other gospel” fails the standard. As such, what the New Testament says should be closely examined and any gospel that is being preached should scrutinized to see if there is any deviation from it.

“All the prophets testify about him [Christ] that EVERYONE who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43. In contrast, another Mormon prophet plainly stated: “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).

When considering whether the prophet in question is of God or not, one should look at and consider it all. Every man must draw their own conclusions based on the facts. I know you’ve drawn your conclusions, as I have mine. As for myself, I am relieved that I no longer have to sing praise to the man. I know him for what he is. I look to Christ alone as my source of life and salvation. If any man should come along claiming to be a prophet, I will listen and consider and apply the test to see whether his words should be given heed or not.

I wish you all God’s best.

I want to comment on just one small portion of your statements. I think it is the portion that is most relevant to this particular blog post, and most of the rest is just standard fare that we’ve discussed many times elsewhere.

You said: “In fact, believing in and accepting Joseph Smith as God’s prophet and accepting his doctrine is ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION. Mormons have a difficult time understanding that this sounds like blasphemy to bible-believing Christians. This is because the bible declares that Christ ALONE is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through him.”

First of all, as a Mormon, I have absolutely no disagreement with the fact that Christ alone is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but through him. Without really checking, I’d wager that our unique LDS scripture (BoM, D&C) is far more explicit on that issue than the Bible is.

But there is a much more important, and strange, part of your statement. It is the false dichotomy that you are creating between God and God’s prophets. You have pitted Joseph Smith against Jesus Christ, and you have implied that it is possible to accept Christ but reject his prophets. Romans 10:5 reads, “And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!””

Oh, and I’m not picking on you specifically Rob, this is a very common thing. This is just a good opportunity to address the issue.

You’ve suggested that our insistence on accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet is somehow a distraction from accepting Jesus Christ. Allow me to ask you this: Can you accept Jesus Christ and simultaneously deny Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and every other biblical messenger that Christ has sent to proclaim his message? Can you deny their prophethood and still be saved? I suggest that you can not. You can not reject God’s prophets and messengers and still accept God, because it is through his messengers that he delivers his word. You won’t even know his word unless you first listen to his prophets, and you can’t be saved unless you listen to his prophets and believe that they are true prophets. Mormons and other Christians all have this same basic need, but for some reason only Mormons are criticized for it.

Have you ever heard the expression, “Don’t shoot the messenger”? From our perspective, when you pit God’s prophets against God you are shooting the messenger. We emphasize acceptance of Joseph Smith’s prophethood only because he is a messenger of God. In like manner it was of upmost importance that the ancient Israelites accepted Moses’ prophetic calling in order for them to be saved and to know Jehovah. Had they denied Moses and his teachings they would have had no salvation because they would have not learned about the grace of Jehovah. The same goes for all of God’s prophets.

This is the false dichotomy that you’ve created. You should not pit God against his prophets but that is exactly what you are doing. Mormons do not do that.