Mormonism Investigated UK

My Story In and Out of Mormonism

Posted on March 1, 2012 by Bobby

Hi all below is the story of my new friend Chris Ralph and His journey in and recently out of Mormonism, enjoy and please leave any comments and questions.

In order to explain my journey out, I must also explain my journey into Mormonism just over 40 years ago. This is unavoidably long, so I will split it up into four parts:

Part 1: In the beginning…

I might easily commence my account by writing “I, Christopher, having been born of goodly parents…”!!!! My mother was loving, caring, and thoroughly organised in the home, making much of the few worldly goods available to us in austere post-war Britain. My father, who is still alive, (aged 88), was always interested in whatever I did, and spent much of his spare time sharing in my hobbies. Like many others in that neighbourhood, we were nominally Anglican, but not churchgoers. My mother had strong inner religious convictions throughout her life, and shared them with me. My father was reluctantly a self-confessed “agnostic”, simply because he could not quite believe in the face of contemporary scientific evidence, although he wanted to. He kept an open mind, hoping he might someday find reason for belief in something bigger.

At 17 I was lined up to go to university to study horticulture, but a deep inner urge to find God overtook me , and increasingly preoccupied me, causing me to rethink my plan. I knew that without God I was always going to be empty, and so I searched and searched, walking alone night after night on a Somerset hilltop which has become a special place for me. In time God met me there, and gave me heartfelt assurances. I was of course very raw, and without any theology, just a desire to know God.

Soon after that I encountered some evangelists, whose message about Jesus failed to impress me, not so much because of the message itself, but because of the very challenging, almost accusatory way in which it was presented. I rejected them out of hand, and their Christ.

My friends were going off to university at about this time, and I stayed home, without a plan, without a job, and of course without friends of my own age around me to deflect me from more serious reflection. (There was no email, no internet, no mobile phones in those days, and communication was maintained by occasional letter). So I was left to myself in terms of developing the assurances I felt I had been given by God.

At this juncture, two LDS missionary elders knocked our door. I answered and agreed to read the book they gave me, (The Book of Mormon), and some of their pamphlets, and arranged to meet them the following evening. At the resulting appointment they introduced me to the story of the boy-prophet Joseph Smith’s ‘First Vision’, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon; they also showed me photographs of ‘modern-day apostles’, who more closely resembled elderly businessmen in my view than disciples of Jesus. I was frankly unimpressed, and said so. I proposed that in any case Jesus was merely ‘a great teacher’, and not the Son of God. Accordingly, they challenged me to enquire prayerfully then and there about his divine status, which I agreed to do, for to have refused, I felt, would have amounted to conceding the argument. So I found myself praying vocally before two strangers, asking this question, to which I felt I already knew the answer.

To my astonishment however, almost immediately I began to pray, I had an electrifying experience which I think paralleled that of Saul of Tarsus. Although I was not struck blind, like stepping out of the darkness into daylight, I instantly understood that my previous assumption had been in error, and that the person history called Jesus of Nazareth was much more than just‘a great teacher’. The question “Why continue to deny me?” seemed to flood through me, and there was no justifiable reason I could offer.

This left me speechless and in tears. I walked out into the night-time, and when I had eventually regained my composure after a couple of hours, I returned home a different person, knowing that Jesus was the light I must thereafter try to follow.

Having received such a dramatic answer, seemingly at the LDS missionaries’ behest, I did what seemed entirely logical to me, and the next day submitted myself to their teachings. It became a formality for them to lead me through their beliefs without further protest, and sixteen days later I was baptised.

Many years later I learned from one of them that he had never before or since witnessed such a conversion. It is now clear to me that on that autumn evening in 1971, I experienced the ‘born again’ experience familiar to Christians throughout time, but not a regular component of typical Mormon conversions. I have learnt during my years in the LDS church that only a small minority of the members have ever experienced such a witness as I received that night.

I will pass over many of the less important details in order to keep this manageably brief. In 1980 my wife Diana and I were married, and ‘sealed for eternity’ in the London Temple. We both found the temple rites emotionally challenging, but accepted verbal assurances given to us by others with more experience, that we would one day understand them, and that this was one of God’s mysteries. Looking back on my own experiences in the temple, I always had a difficulty in equating the God as portrayed there, to the God who had met me on the hilltop, and the Saviour who had witnessed to me in answer to my prayer. I learned to put those concerns to one side however, until I could develop sufficient spirituality to see that connection… but I never did.

In the LDS church, almost imperceptibly ‘faith’ grows to mean faith in the institution, rather than faith in God. Indeed, for many, the institution and God become completely blurred in their thinking, and the church organisation becomes a great Golden Calf to be revered and worshipped. That is the reason, I suspect, that so many who eventually learn the truth about LDS origins, and leave the church, are left either agnostic or atheistic in their beliefs, because their God has been overthrown.

Diana and I subsequently raised five children in the LDS gospel. In 1987 we were instrumental in converting my parents, whom I personally baptised and confirmed, and later we supported our oldest son financially while he served a successful two-year proselyting mission in the north of England. In other words, we did what was expected of us, followed our leaders, and generally played the part of ‘good soldiers’; for thirty-five years we happily volunteered our time, effort and means in church service, and were considered faithful, knowledgeable and capable members. I served at various times on bishoprics, as ward mission leader, elders’ quorum president, high priest group leader, and on the stake high council, among other callings. Diana served as Primary President and YW President, and RS teacher and as Stake Family History Consultant.

Part 2: The unravelling

In 2000 a trusted priesthood leader in another ward defrauded us and others out of a significant sum of money. When we caught him out in his deception he was initially very apologetic for his “mistake”, and was prepared to address the matter with the help of priesthood leaders. At the time we did not know that he had done this sort of thing before, and intended telling the leaders another story which made him look like he was our victim. The undiscerning LDS leaders, (including members of the Area Presidency), believed his story when he falsely represented that the losses had been due to failed business transactions, and refused to support us in our attempts to work out a fair outcome.

It was a very unpleasant episode which dragged on for 4 years, but with the help of the fraud squad the man was eventually brought to trial, found guilty of crimes of theft and deception and was jailed for 3 years. Meanwhile local priesthood leaders, all the time being manipulated by the perpetrator, advised us to conduct ourselves in such a way as would have stopped the case proceeding. A complaint was made to the police about this unwelcome interference in the judicial process, and at one point all three members of the Bristol Stake Presidency were warned to butt out, leave witnesses alone, or face a police enquiry themselves. It was the sad and dangerous fallibility of such men which caused me and others to start questioning how they could be acting for God when they used their position to give such worthless advice; advice which could well have resulted in several of us losing our homes in paying off the defamation lawsuits which we knew would follow if the case collapsed. One member of the stake presidency was unrepentant and suggested at a later date that it would have been better for us to have followed the inspired advice which had been given, and lose our homes if necessary, rather than to report our priesthood leaders to the police for witness interference!

Such warped thinking led a friend of ours, who was a fellow victim of these crimes, to question whether such arrogance and ineptitude was endemic at higher levels within the Mormon hierarchy. He soon began to discover a great deal of information about the church and its history, which he had never been taught in Sunday School. Believing that I had a thorough doctrinal grounding, he confided in me his innermost concerns about certain historical issues. Thereafter I spent many late nights attempting to find answers for him in Mormon apologist literature, but the answers frankly fell far short of credibility. It proved deeply unsettling, and during three years of intensifying cognitive dissonance my identity steadily metamorphosed from ‘true believing Mormon’ to ‘would-be Mormon apologist’ to ‘post-Mormon realist’. My last defence was breached when I scrutinized evidence concerning the Book of Abraham, and found that there were no honest defences available. That book was demonstrably a fabrication, the product of Joseph Smith’s imagination. If that was the case, then how could anything else he revealed be trusted? It was only then that I finally conceded that one whole side of that old tub “SS Mormonism”, in which I had been sailing since 1971, was completely missing, blasted entirely away by reason, and I had only a thimble to bail out the water which was relentlessly pouring in. By the middle of 2009, I was able to say with a clear conscience and without flinching for the first time in over 37 years, that I knew Joseph Smith had not been a true prophet.

It afterwards became challenging to hear LDS friends ignorantly perpetuating what I knew to be historical untruths. At church I faced a painful choice: counter the many false statements and risk causing general upset, or maintain dishonest silence. My bishop refused point-blank to discuss any of my concerns, told me I was on the brink of apostasy, and urged me to take the latter of these courses, and become, as he put it, ‘a wise old bird’; one who presumably would just sit on his perch in silent suffering; then he warned me not to speak outside of my family about these matters, upon pain of facing church discipline.

I quietly withdrew from all participation shortly thereafter, as it had become intolerable. Truth by this time had become much more important to me than supporting discredited dogma.

I felt both saddened and grateful to be able to see through the façade. There was a feeling somewhat akin to bereavement, having lost the faith community which had become the ever-present backdrop to my life, but at the same time it had been instructive to confront the realities of my espoused religion. My spiritual understanding had been steadily refined by this process. Despite all the shock and disappointment of “losing my religion” in terms of outward performances, I knew absolutely that my original conversion experience to the Saviour had been real. That was the rock I was holding onto, and I continued to trust in his teachings, which offered all real hope.

Part 3: Our family.

Our resolve to follow a life of faith outside of Mormonism, was tested in September 2010, with the unexpected death of our son, Emmanuel, aged 28. Amazingly from that traumatic experience we have learned a great deal about ourselves, Emmanuel, our faith, and God’s tender love for us, and feel we have been blessed with some special personal insights, which we know we would not otherwise have had.

Our other children, except for our oldest, Edwin, have also seen through the delusion of Mormonism. Edwin is an outstandingly good person, and we wish that he could understand that it is faith which has brought us to the point where we presently are, and not a lack of it.

Our children are as follows:
[1] Edwin, our TBM son, now almost 31, who is married, with three children aged 1, 3 and 5. He suffers enormously over our withdrawl from the church, as he grew up always knowing we were actively involved. If you want to help us, pray for him that he may have his heart opened to understand that we are only doing what God has led us to do.

[2] Emmanuel, (or Manny for short, it means “God with us”). He is now with God, having died accidentally in 2010 aged 28, just four days after announcing his forthcoming marriage. He was both very special and very challenging at times, and his death has left an aching in our hearts, for part of us has died with him. We sense he is never far from us though. He turned away from the church a few years ago, because of hypocrisy he encountered in it.

[3] Martha, 27, who has shared our journey out of Mormonism, along with her husband. They have three small children aged 3, 4, and nearly 6. She has been invited into this group.

[4] Sophia, single aged 22, just embarking on a PhD in Criminology. She has also shared our journey, and has been invited into this group.
[5] Joseph, aged 11. He is our miracle boy, a blessing out of season. He has brought great love and stability to our family, and greatly enriches our lives.

We have always been a close family, and were featured in the official church magazine, “The New Era”, 1999. This is found online at the following link: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d13c19b3fe4fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

After Manny’s death, we uploaded to YouTube footage of him, Sophia, Joseph, Diana and my father. It is found at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBP7M0cA4wQ

Part 4: Some conclusions to date.
Since Manny’s death we have realised that the truth about the life to come is much richer than any doctrine taught by the LDS church. Following his loss of faith in Mormonism, Manny turned to Eastern religions for spiritual answers, and was enquiring into religion in general in his quest to fill a void. He and I talked about a year before he died about being born again, and he said he wished he could have a personal witness of Christ such as the one I had received. Meanwhile he spent much of his time helping others.

He appeared through LDS eyes to be something of a rebel, but we were amazed to learn later from people in his social circles of all the good he had done. So many people spoke about him sharing his food, or his money with them, and they talked about voluntary work he had done visiting prisoners, or raising awareness about drug abuse. That part of his life was often not visible to us. He wanted to believe in Christ, and even wrote me a letter to that effect in 2009, thanking us for giving him the upbringing he had within a family in the church setting, because it had made him aware of spiritual dimensions, which otherwise he would never have known.

When we pondered it Manny had done what the Lord requires of anyone to qualify for eternal life, as outlined in Matthew 25. At his funeral I was able to describe him as “a sheep in goat’s clothing”. We have since had several remarkable assurances that all is well, and he has his wish. We now understand that families, (and friendships), indeed do have the potential to be eternal, not according to the LDS formula, (i.e. because two people once upon a time knelt at an altar in a stone building and had an incantation spoken to them), but because love itself is eternal, and binds us to one another. That is a message found woven throughout the fabric of the true gospel of the New Testament. Failure to understand that this kind of eternal reward is freely available to all followers of Christ, enslaves many LDS who fear they will lose their families by turning away from their temple covenants. The LDS temple is used effectively by the Mormon hierarchy to control the minds and behaviours of those indoctrinated in Mormon fables. When I think of that distorted LDS version of the gospel, and see how people are constantly left fearful and guilt-ridden, over-busy and stressed out in their futile efforts to accomplish perfection through a never ending list of works, I come close to anger. The LDS gospel does not produce the eternal families advertised on its packaging, but often leads instead to family division and disintegration.

I have not requested that my name be removed from the LDS records, although I am definitely post-Mormon now, and could never return, because of what I know. I intend to publish an explanation of our position at some point, and this will undoubtedly lead to a formal charge of apostasy, and a disciplinary hearing being called for me. It is my intention to use that opportunity to bear witness to the truths I have learned, and challenge the leadership to excommunicate me for nothing more than telling what can be shown to be the truth about LDS history. It is also my intention to make them publicly accountable for their actions, by inviting the media to report upon the outcome of that hearing. It may be the best opportunity I have of raising the awareness of my TBM friends and family.

Posted in Testimony | Tagged Chris Ralph, Ex Mormon, Mormon to Christ, Mormon UK, Mormonism UK, UK ex Mormon, UK Leaving Mormonism, UK Mormon | 8 Comments

Made in the Image of God.

Posted on February 19, 2012 by Bobby

The other day I got talking to some Mormon Missionaries in a local town centre, we had a great chat and I challenged them on a number of areas but one thing they asked me about was my belief on what the bible means by us being made in the image of God. Mormons take this very literally and believe that we are physically the image of God because God the Father has a physical human body from His time being a man.

As a Bible believing evangelical I do not accept this and thought it would be worth exploring why and maybe have some discussion about it.

The bible verse the debate starts at is here:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

So before I get started just to sum up, Mormons say this is a physical image, and evangelicals (bible only believing types) say it means attributes not physical likeness.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 says “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s”

Joseph Smith in his own teaching said: “That which is without body or parts is nothing. There is no God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith p.42)

2nd Mormon President Brigham Young said:

“Our God and Father in Heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, he has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth his works to organized beings, as for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in his organized body. His Son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his Father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from himself, and may properly be called God’s minister to execute his will in immensity; being called to govern by his influence and power; but he is not a person of flesh as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.24)

This understandably leads to this thinking.

“Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so. He is no more every where present in person than the Father and Son are one in person” (Discourses of Brigham Young p.23-24)

I am not 100% sure if that last statement is still believed in Mormonism today however it makes sense in light of the earlier statements which are believed in the Mormon Church today.

So from a biblical perspective the first verse we understandably go to is:

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So this is Jesus speaking as a man with a body at this stage and He says God, (who when Jesus is speaking always means the Father) is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The Mormon Apologetics institution FAIR has some thoughts on this bible verse here

Among others they make this point: Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

And come to this conclusion: Adopting the critics’ reading of this verse leads to some strange conclusions if we are consistent. Deuteronomy 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell. Can an unembodied spirit do that? Exodus 9:3 says that God is a consuming fire, 1 John 1:5 says God is light, and 1 John 4:4,16 says that God is love. Is He just those things? Clearly not, and the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit.

I think they make a fair point in realising that all bible verses need to be viewed in light of other bible verses however their reasoning does not really make an argument as nothing in the context of the bible challenges the idea that God is Spirit, it just shows other attributes of His, however these other attributes do not contradict His being Spirit.

The concluding words : the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit. Is conveniant ignorance of the fact that the LDS view of God having a body is a direct contradiction to the bibles teaching, not merely an addition to it as the other bible verses they quote bring.

This still leaves the problem though, what does image mean?

Genesis 1:26 helps us out here:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the ^[a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, this image is according to the likeness of God.

In verse 28 it says rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, Verse 31 says God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

So like God we rule over the earth, however unlike Him our rule is limited. This creation was declared to be very good, who did Jesus say is the only one that is good, the answer is God.

Like God this creation is good, again as finite beings this goodness is finite however it is still very much Gods attributes given to us.

Interestingly we see a lot of support for this view in Philippians 2:6-9

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be ^[f]grasped, ⁷ but ^[g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death ^[h]on a cross.

If you pay close attention here you will see the problems this causes for Mormon theology is massive, here it is step by step.

Jesus existed in the form of God,
He emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond servant,
Was then found in the appearance of a man, as a result of this changing of form.

Think about it, if Jesus was in the form of God then He was already like a man, however He had to empty Himself to be found in the appearance of man, surely this would be an exaltation to take the form of a man as ultimately He would be taking the form of God, however this was not the case as He was already in the form of God, which was Spirit.

So I hope you can see that the more literal interpretation of the bible is the one that looks at it more deeply than just looking at 1 verse. God the Father is an infinite being, who created an earth that cannot contain Him, (1 Kings 8:27) and is able to do far more than we can ask or imagine (Ephesians 3:20)

As ever please leave a comment with your thoughts.

Posted in Gods Attributes | Tagged form of a bondservant, Image of God, LDS God, Mormon UK, Mormonism UK, sinful man, UK Mormon | 2 Comments

The effects of Google on the LDS Church

Posted on February 2, 2012 by Bobby

http://connect.facebook.net/rsrc.php/v1/yQ/r/f3KaqM7xIBg.swf

http://www.facebook.com/dialog/oauth?api_key=41245586762&app_id=41245586762&channel_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-static.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fconnect%2Fxd_proxy.php%3Fversion%3D3%23cb%3Df35d47da2310d1a%26origin%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%252Ff4de9ffae780c1%26relation%3Dparent.parent%26transport%3Dpostmessage&client_id=41245586762&display=none&domain=mormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com&locale=en_US&origin=1&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fs-static.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fconnect%2Fxd_proxy.php%3Fversion%3D3%23cb%3Df29a0915d84efcc%26origin%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%252Ff4de9ffae780c1%26relation%3Dparent%26transport%3Dpostmessage%26frame%3Df26fbb5e824f94&response_type=token%2Csigned_request%2Ccode&sdk=joey

http://connect.facebook.net/rsrc.php/v1/yQ/r/f3KaqM7xIBg.swf

http://www.facebook.com/dialog/oauth?api_key=41245586762&app_id=41245586762&channel_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs-static.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fconnect%2Fxd_proxy.php%3Fversion%3D3%23cb%3Dfd2fb83869908b%26origin%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%252Ff12d696b45acd21%26relation%3Dparent.parent%26transport%3Dpostmessage&client_id=41245586762&display=none&domain=mormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com&locale=en_US&origin=1&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fs-static.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fconnect%2Fxd_proxy.php%3Fversion%3D3%23cb%3Df1e8956b35852d3%26origin%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%252Ff12d696b45acd21%26relation%3Dparent%26transport%3Dpostmessage%26frame%3Df1c69397186bbaa&response_type=token%2Csigned_request%2Ccode&sdk=joey

This is Elder marlin k. jensen who is on the Quorum of the 70 in the Mormon Church. He is of the top 85 men in leadership in this organization and is also the Churches head historian. He recently did a live interview with the audience being able to ask questions. At around the 29th minute he is asked about the effects of google and the information people are finding, and the effects that is having on the church. I would recommend you click on the link and listen to it for the full answer, but he does say this:

“Weve never had a period of apostasy like we are having right now, largely over these issues.”

Like never before people are leaving the LDS church due to the issues people are coming across on the internet, that they would never find on the official Church website.

In a Washington Post article It says that Mormon scholar, writer and observer Terryl Givens said “I definitely get the sense that this is a real crisis,” . “It is an epidemic.” There is a “discrepancy between a church history that has been selectively rendered through the Church Educational System and Sunday school manuals, and a less-flattering version universally accessible on the Internet,” Givens said.

And I think for me and many others this is the issue, what the LDS Church teaches and has taught for many years about its history is entirely different at times, to what you will find if you go to lds.org. To Mormons reading this, and I dont mean apologists I mean regular Mormons who have come across this site I would ask do you know that when Joseph Smith “translated” the book of Mormon the plates were not there. He put his face into his hat with his seer stone in it and just dictated from that, no eyewitness reports claim that the plates were there for the translation process. Do you know Smith married teenage girls as young as 14 polygamously without Emmas knowledge, many if his wives were married to other men, there is no way you could know that unless you dare to look at what the church calls apostate material, yet often it is more truthful than what you are being told.

People are no longer just quietly submitting and they are looking for themselves, leading the LDS church to think we are going to have to do something about this. I think this will soon lead to a drip feed of new information about church history coming from the church in an attempt to stop its people from leaving.

Another news article says this:

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide — optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.

The LDS Church boasts 14 million members worldwide yet it seems that a mass amount of these well over half are inactive and not involved, And more than ever people are looking into the information for themselves and deciding this is not true.

In the UK I have heard estimates recently that of the 190.000 members we are looking at around 50.000 active, I dont know what the figures are of people leaving but more and more I am getting contacts of people who have looked into the history of the church and seen the evidence for themselves of Joseph Smiths obsession with women leading to him taking other mens wives as his own without his wife Emma, or their husband knowing its going on and the stories continue.

Elder Jensen also said in the interview above:

“My own daughter,” he then added, “has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are “severely outdated.”

People today are no longer happy to quietly follow the Prophet and this is likely to continue to cause massive problems for the LDS Church.

Maybe you are a UK (or anywhere) LDS member reading this thinking “Bobby your just another horrible Anti-Mormon spouting lies.” Well dont listen to me just look into it for yourself, below is a video of a family who recently did. I challenge you to watch it and not just think like your church wants you to think, which is to ignore all information a critic of the church presents as they are just full of hatred.

Posted in Mormon Apostasy | Tagged Ex Mormon, Ex Mormon UK, Google and the Mormon Church, Marlin Jenson, Mormon UK, Mormonism UK, People leaving the Mormon Church | 34 Comments

Official Doctrine…..Whats that?

Posted on January 26, 2012 by Bobby

Above is a video recently put together by Keith Walker From Evidence Ministries highlighting an issue that anyone who has dialogue with Mormons and to be fair anyone who is a Mormon will have likely faced.

This is hardly anything of substance within Mormonism is official belief, or official doctrine, for example the idea that God was once a man which has tons of quotes from Joseph Smith and Mormon leaders that followed, yet today it is emphasised so little that many Mormons hardly know about it and can often say they dont think thats Mormon belief, a major cause of this problem comes from a very recent Mormon “Prophet” Gordon B Hinckley. In an interview with Time Magazine on the subject heres what he said.

Question: “Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?“

Hinckley: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.” – Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, Time Magazine, Aug 4, 1997

Hinckley was an expert at avoiding questions and painting the picture that Mormonism was not all that aware or connected to those past doctrine, as the Prophet of the church who had worked for the church all his life its hard to believe he would be unaware of these things.

So often today Missionaries and apologists when asked about the less comfortable teachings of Mormonism will often say I dont know about that, or its not official, despite the fact that in the earlier days of Mormonism these things were taught with pride. The idea that we can become gods and God was a man like us were all well taught things by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and beyond.

This also included some stranger doctrines like the idea that Adam from the garden of eden was actually God and that God was ultimately the one who commited that first sin, as well as this he taught that some sins were not covered by the blood of Christ and our own blood would have to be shed instead.

Today these are not at all believed but in a church that claims there is always one man on the earth who hears directly from God it suprising how much these guys have said that is not official and how little they say today. When has Thomas Monson said anything more than do a mission, pay into the welfare fund, serve the church! When has he said things that only someone with a direct link to God would say? And not just a rehash of what the church has been saying for years.

I think by far the most likely reason is the LDS church’s desperation to appear normal and Christian and they know becoming gods does not help this process. Hence recent media campains where they have said things like “Hi I am Dave, I do this job and that activity and….Im a Mormon”, many of the books and manuals that have the thincker teachings of Mormonism are no longer available through the LDS Church. The book Mormon Doctirne by Bruce Mckonkie mentioned in the video above stopped being sold by Deseret Books the official Mormon Bookstore in the last couple of years. That book has over the years caused many problems for the Mormon Church because of its clarity and honesty about Mormon Teachings, it has often been reffered to as just Mckonkies opinions, yet if you check the book you will find most or all things he says are referenced back to Mormon “Prophets”.

BYU (Brigham Young university) Professor Charles Harrel has recently brought out his book called This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology which from what I understand is a very honest look at the massive difference between the Mormon Doctrine of Joseph Smiths day and today, and inbetween, I havent read it yet but my copy is on order. There is a two part interview with him about the book on Mormon stories here http://mormonstories.org/?p=2414

So for Christians who have had the experience of Mormons saying they dont know or dont believe things you have read about, this is why, it does not neccesarily mean what you have read is wrong (though it still could be)

And Mormons please consider why the one true church on the face of the earth with the only person on the earth with a direct link to God still doesn’t clearly teach or know many things, such as will we have planets? Who is heavenly Mother? Was the Father once a sunful man on another planet (loads of views on that one) was Jesus born of a virgin? And the list goes on.

Posted in Mormon Doctrine | Tagged Bruce Mckonkie, Evidence Ministries, Keith Walker, Mormon Doctrine, Official Mormon Doctrine | 5 Comments

Feelings, Feelings, Feelings!

Posted on January 24, 2012 by Bobby

Above is a video recently put out by the Mormon Church, with a number of good looking individuals with nice music in the background talking about how through their feelings inside them, the Holy Ghost regularly reassures them that everything is ok, and that the gospel, meaning the Mormon Church is true.

This idea finds its place in the Book of Mormon in a section refferred to as Moroni’s Promise.

Moroni 10:3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how ^amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ^bponder it in your ^chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ^aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ^btrue; and if ye shall ask with a ^csincere heart, with ^dreal intent, having ^efaith in Christ, he will ^fmanifest the ^gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ^aknow the ^btruth of all things.

Whenever you speak to Mormon Missionaries ultimately their goal is to get you to read some or all of the book of Mormon, but particularly this passage and get you to pray and ask God if its true, their hope is that some kind of warm feeling will come inside you at this point. They will seek to say things in a certain way, and almost create a warm atmosphere as they do this they will ask you how you feel about what they are saying.

In the 4 part interview I put up recently from Mormon Stories, the ex CES teacher said that teachers would ask him for his most emotionally dramatic stories, so that they could create this feeling of truth confirmation in their meetings. I went to a local fireside meeting which is an LDS kind of visitors meeting, and before the lady even spoke her husband handed her tissues for when she inevitably burst into tears through the talk about how true the church is. The LDS church is all about making you feel its good and not worry so much about the more troublesome things they believe. I heard a phrase “people join the Mormon Church because of what they feel, and leave because of what they know.”

Most if not all Mormon members basis for believing what they believe is found in this internal witness or a testimony, this feeling that tells them what they believe is true. I have spoke to Mormon Missionaries about issues such as racism and had them say I know Joseph Smith wasnt a racist because I have had it confirmed to me.

However this is a massive problem for 3 reasons.

1, You must pray with a sincere heart.

2, This leads to problems of consistency.

3, It goes against the bibles teaching on measuring truth and ignores biblical teaching on listening to the Spirit.

So the first point as I underlined in the Book of Mormon Passage is you have to pray with all sincerity, whats wrong with that? Well what happens if you pray and you feel your sincere and you dont get an answer, or you feel you get an answer saying its false. You tell this to the Mormon Missionary, of your parent, your bishop and what do they say…… Go back and pray with more sincerity. Simple as that and the cycle will go on until you leave or get the answer, so its not surprising that answer comes. A friend of mine in recent discussion with a Mormon Missionary had the missionary confide in him that he prayed around 150 times before he got the answer, its a circular trap.

Secondly this has led to massive problems of consistency, there are around 300 groups that have come into existence as a result of the Mormon Church, all claiming to be the correct Mormon Church. While in Utah I spoke to a member of the fundamentalist LDS Church and he was adamant that his internal witness was the correct one.

This idea of feelings is simply to create a basis of belief so that any issues that arise later will be easily ignored as this initial feeling is there to take away any bad feeling or discomfort they might create.

Bill Mckkeever at http://www.mrm.org/feelings says this:

Mormons often tell me how they “feel” that Mormonism is right; however, as a Christian I can respond with equal assurance that I “feel” my faith is right. But does that make it right? I recently read the story of a new convert who said, “Until the very second that I made my declaration, I wasn’t entirely convinced that it was what I wanted to do. Would I wake up one day and want to change my mind? Would I feel like I had made a huge mistake? But already I feel as if my life has been transformed. I don’t know how to describe it, but the moment I said those words, my heart filled with joy and love and it took about four days for me to come back down off the ceiling.” Though this sounds very familiar to statements I’ve heard from both Mormons and Christians, it was actually a comment made by a woman who had recently recited the Shahada, a Muslim testimony that simply states, “La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah.” Translated this phrase says, “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” (“Why I took the hijab,” The Guardian, June 20, 2002). What does this prove? Well, when it comes to establishing what is true, it proves absolutely nothing. It is just one opinion among millions.

Which leads onto my 3rd point that the bible gives us a different basis to measure truth. I said to a Mormon Missionary once what if I told you superman was God how would you know I am wrong? Mostly they have said they would search the scriptures however some have said they would pray about it.

In Acts 17:11 we see Paul bringing something new in terms of teaching to the bereans, the bible describes them as noble. Their response was that they searched the scriptures. This is the measure for truth, Christians if your sat with Mormon Missionarys and they ask you to pray about what they are saying tell them lets look at the bible first.

But am I saying that all interaction with the Spirit is wrong? That would be a sad thing to do, to ignore a third member of the Godhead or simply say He is unrealiable, this is not the case, however you need to be aware of the reality of your human condition when you do this.

In the bible in Jeremiah 17:9 it says The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Our hearts and emotions can deceieve us in all sorts of ways, this is why we have scripture as that basis to measure truth, and that is a noble way to look at it. All personal feelings or “revelations” must be judged against that which you know for sure God has said.

Hebrews 5:12-14 says For though ^[a]by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the ^[b]elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. ¹³ For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. ¹⁴ But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

It takes practice to discern what is good and evil, this and it does not come from getting a warm feeling in your tummy when two Mormon Missionaries tell you its true. This practice involves reading the word of God, the bible and allowing God to speak to you through that and whatever other means He will. Why not ask God to reveal to you what is true, rather than just pin it down to a yes or no answer about one thing, that for some takes over a hundred prayers just to get a feeling.

For Christians this is a message to you pleading that when you get a knock on the door from Mormons share the truth of the gospel with them.

And to Mormons I would never expect anyone to walk away because of what I have said, however look under the surface, there is so much of Mormon History and belief that you will never hear if all you do is blindly follow the prophet. Look at some of the sites linked to on the right or leave a comment to start this journey.

http://seg.sharethis.com/getSegment.php?purl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonisminvestigated.wordpress.com%2Fwp-admin%2Fpost.php%3Fpost%3D549%26action%3Dedit&jsref=&rnd=1327418729070

Posted in Mormon Testimony | Tagged internal witness, Mormon, Mormon Epistomology, Mormon Feelings, Mormon UK, Moronis Promise | 13 Comments

From LDS Church education teacher to disbelief.

Posted on January 22, 2012 by Bobby

Hi All below is 4 parts to an interview between John Dehlin of Mormon Stories and a couple who have recently left the Mormon Church. Whats unique is that this couple worked full time for the LDS Church teaching religion. Although they have not come to follow Christ as yet there are some fantastic points made here and some very honest discussion about life in the LDS church, the very high standards and how the Church often does not behave in a Christ like way towards its members.

Its very long over 4 hours in total however well worth the time, if you want to understand the inside workings of Mormonism better or if you are LDS and doubting and want to see your not alone this is worth the time, please leave any thoughts in the comments box if you would like to discuss it more.

Posted in Testimony | Tagged CES, CES Teacher, Ex Mormon, John Dehlin, Mormon, Mormon Stories, Mormon UK, Stories of leaving the LDS church | 6 Comments

The Book of Mormon prophesied in the Bible – right? by Thaddeus Irvine.

Posted on December 20, 2011 by Bobby

One day, two well-dressed and pleasantly spoken members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) come to your door and offer you the chance to study the Bible with them. This used to consist of 6 ‘Discussions’, although the format is now less formal and is based on the manual, ‘Preach My Gospel,’ to which only they will have access. This manual has 13 Chapters. Chapter 5 (p.103) is entitled ‘What is the Role of the Book of Mormon.’ On page 106 of this manual, we find the section, ‘The Book of Mormon and the Bible Support Each Other.’ The passage explains how the Bible needs to be supported by the BoM. This Book of Mormon (BoM) is very important to the Mormon (LDS) church as they realise that, without it, they could not exist. In the Introduction to the BoM, it states that this book is “the keystone of our religion.” The founder of the Mormons, Joseph Smith stated, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” (History of the Church,2:52). They profess to be Christians and, among some of their claims, will be their belief that the Book of Mormon is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”.

When challenged about this, they will offer several ‘proofs’ from the Bible, which they claim authenticates this point of view. One of these ‘proofs’ is that the Old Testament scriptures themselves prophesy of the Book of Mormon. They make use of two Scriptures: Ezekiel 37^15-20 & Isaiah 29^1-4. If this is true, then this evidence goes some way to establishing the truth of the Book of Mormon; and shedding a whole new light on the authority and inspiration of the Holy Bible.

Let’s look at the first of these scriptures taken from the Authorised Version, also used by the Mormon Church – Ezekiel 37^15-20.

V 15 “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, V 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: v 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. V 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? V 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put then with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. V 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.”

The late Mormon ‘apostle’ LeGrand Richards, in his work A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, said this, “Note that the Lord said he would do this and make them one in his hand. Now, granting that the Bible is the stick of Judah, where is the stick of Joseph? Can anyone answer?” (p 65); he goes on to say that, “Until someone can explain where the stick of Joseph is, the Book of Mormon stands unrefuted in its claims to be the ‘stick of Joseph”’ (p 67). My intention is to take up LeGrand Richards’ challenge and explain these ‘sticks,’ scripturally.

In another Mormon publication, ‘Read the Book of Mormon. It Can Change Your Life’, it states, “Significantly, the joining of these two books of Scripture as a dual witness for Jesus Christ was foreseen more than twenty-five centuries ago by Ezekiel” (p 5); Another late Mormon ‘apostle’, Dr James E Talmage, in his Articles of Faith, stated, “Ezekiel saw in vision the coming together of the stick of Judah, and the stick of Joseph, signifying the Bible and the Book of Mormon…The Nephites were then of the tribes of Joseph, and their record or ‘stick’ is as truly represented by the Book of Mormon as is the stick of Judah by the Bible” (pp 249-250).

You can find the canonized, misinterpretation of Ezekiel 37 in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 27, verse 5:

“Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the recordof the stick of Ephraim”

This LDS scripture is cross-referenced to Ezekiel 37:16. If the cursor is placed over the word for ‘stick’ at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/27/5e and double-clicked, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ezek/37/16a offers the following information: “16a HEB wood. Wooden writing tablets were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel’s day.” It also references Num. 17: ^1-10 ^{(cf. verse 2)} for apparent support.

What the Mormon Church teaches regarding these ‘sticks’ is that:

∞ The sticks spoken of are really scrolls, books or records

∞ The stick ofJudahrefers to the Bible

∞ The stick of Joseph refers to the Book of Mormon

∞ The joining of the sticks refers to the joining together of the Biblical and Mormon scriptures (the Bible depending upon, and needing, the Book of Mormon for support)

∞ The Book of Mormon is a ‘further history’ of Jesus’ other sheep who migrated toAmerica

∞ The Bible tells only part of the story, thus remaining defective, inaccurate, fairly unreliable and incomplete.

Which raises another interesting point, namely, if the Authorized Version of the Bible is so inaccurate and corrupt (according to the Mormon Church, we should, “believe the word of God as far as it is translated correctly” – Article of Faith 1:8), then why don’t they substitute it for Joseph Smith’s “Holy Scriptures – Inspired Version” (the complete Joseph Smith ‘translation’, or JST, as it is also known)? This version was completed, since God had expected and commanded it in D & C 94:10; 104:58 & 124:89. God had told him not only to translate it, but to complete it in D & C 73:4. Joseph Smith admits that he had done this in July 2, 1833, according to the ‘Documentary History of the Church. 1:368. ‘This was later verified in LDS historian Andrew Jensen’s ‘Church Chronology,’ as well as the preface of the Inspired Version. The LDS has a duty to get this right because of its functions and responsibilities mentioned in D & C 107:91, 92.

This appears to be a fairly conclusive argument for the Book of Mormon but, upon closer examination, we discover flaws in their reasoning.

For example; the word ‘stick’ appears seven times in verses 15-19, and as ‘sticks’ in verse 20. It is a masculine noun, and its translated by the word #[e ((`ets). It can be located in Strong’s Concordance (6086), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1670a) and Vines Complete Expository Dictionary (p 267 under the word “tree”, not scroll, book or record!) There are various meanings of this word, such as; tree (Ezek. 36³⁰); timber/lumber (Ezek. 26¹²); stalk (Josh 2⁶); gallows (Gen. 40¹⁹) and planks (Ezek. 41²⁵). As can be seen, there is no room for anything other than the idea of wood or wooden (wood-like), with the one exception of Joshua. One has only to use the Mormon interpretation of ‘book’ in the context of 1 Kings 17¹²and 2 Kings 6^1-7 to see how ridiculous their interpretation is. The word ‘’ets’ translated ‘stick(s)’ – also translating tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax in 1 Kings and 2 Kings - is exactly the same word used in this passage of Ezekiel. Are we to take it that, in 1 Kings, the widow at Zarephath isn’t really gathering sticks but books or scrolls? And likewise, in 2 Kings, where we find Elisha cutting down wood – or is that a book, or even a scroll? Some Mormons have attempted to say that, since ‘stick’ (‘rod’ in KJV) can symbolize a ‘tribe’ (Num. 17^1-3), why can’t it do likewise for a scroll or record? The Hebrew word used here is hJ,m; (matteh), which means a ‘rod, staff, branch, shaft, stave or tribe’. As Vine’s puts it, “It is possible the ‘matteh’ (“staff”), is a symbol of authority, first applied to the tribal leader and thereafter by extension to the whole “tribe”” (p269). It is a completely different word, and to attempt to adopt this approach is really clutching at non-existent straws!

Is it possible that a stick suggests, or is a symbol for, a scroll or book?

1. In the Bible, a stick (#[e))) is never used to symbolize a book, scroll or record. It is used to translate: reed, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows a tree or trees, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax,

2. Surely Ezekiel knew the difference between gallows, cedar-woods, firewood, etc and a book?

3. The word rp,se (say'-fer) means a ‘writing, book, written message, scroll, legal document, bill, official letter, register’ – not a stick or a tree. It is a different word altogether (see Strong’s – 5612; Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament – 1540a). In A Marvellous Work and A Wonder (the Mormon author of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Mormon Church), LeGrand Richards tries to tie ‘stick’ and ‘scroll’ or ‘book’ together when he explains, “In ancient times it was the custom to write on parchment and roll it on a stick” (p66). In this case, ‘say'-fer’ would have been used – if Ezekiel had wanted to specifically refer to a scroll - not ‘‘ets’; see Ezekiel 2⁹ where “a roll of a book” is mentioned – ‘book’ being translated by ‘say'-fer’, and the word “roll” translated by hL'gIm. (megillah) which occurs with ‘say'-fer’ meaning a ‘scroll of a book’, which translates LeGrand Richards’ “parchment and roll on a stick” perfectly.

These verses, in a figurative context, refer to Israel - the Northern Kingdom (Israel, sometimes Ephraim), and Judah – the Southern Kingdom (Judah and Benjamin) as two “sticks” (i.e., nations), which had been split from the initial Kingdom of Israel in 931 BC, and that will be joined together by God upon the death of King Solomon,. Both had, since this split, fallen prey to either periods of captivity or exile (see Ezekiel 34 through 48). God was speaking in a prophecy, through Ezekiel, in which He was reassuring the split nations that they would, in due course, be brought together as one nation ( not two books), under one king.

There are several points to note here in relation to Mormonism, which takes this passage totally out of context for its own ends:

The people specifically ask for the verses to be interpreted (v 18), which they are (v 19-22); similar methods of interpretation are used in The Parable of the Sower (Mark 4, esp. v 10) and Jesus and the Tares (Matthew 13, esp. v 36); if God’s Word was good enough to supply an accurate interpretation for these parables, why not this prophecy? Or maybe, God only gets it right with parables; and prophecies cause difficulties for the limited, created God of the Mormon Church?
If these sticks really refer to the Book of Mormon, then why does it call itself “the stick of Joseph” rather than the Book of Mormon? Why should one book be the Bible? What hasJudah got to do with the Bible?Judah may be the tribe from which the Lord is descended, butJudah had no hand in writing Scripture; and again why the Bible, why not the Old Testament?
Even if we were to accept the Mormon church in their interpretation of Ezekiel’s sticks as ‘books’, and even if we were to doubly accept that one stick was the Bible (which on its own is a big assumption since nowhere is this suggested), why should the other stick be the book of Mormon? It could be any other book we care to think of—one of the Apocryphal books for example, or something from Shakespeare or Dickens; the book of Mormon is no morelikely than these.
- When the ‘so-called’ original inscriptions were discovered by Joseph Smith (the founder of the Mormon Church), they weren’t on scrolls, books, parchments – or even sticks! They were ‘discovered’ on golden plates! Doesn’t this nullify the Mormon interpretation of this prophecy?
- It was Ezekiel alone who wrote on both sticks which, according to Mormon logic, must mean that he was responsible for the writing of both books – otherwise, Mormon interpretation and this text contradict each other! Surely, for Mormonism to be correct, this passage should have stated that Ezekiel must write on the ‘stick ofJudah’ (the Bible) and Nephi, son of Lehi (there are 3 other Nephi’s) must write on the ‘stick of Manasseh’ (the Book of Mormon). This was not the case, making this Mormon proof text redundant with regard to Mormon prophecy.
- According to the Book of Mormon (representing Joseph), it was supposed to have been written by the Nephites, who were apparently descendants of Joseph, through Joseph’s other son – Manasseh. The book of Mormon specifically states, in Alma10³: “And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.” [bold and underline added for emphasis].

It is a history of the descendants of Manasseh, not Ephraim. Is Lehi (according to the Book of Mormon, this particular character was a Hebrew prophet who led his followers to the Promised Land in the western hemisphere” around 600 B.C.; there are 3 other ‘Lehi’s’) the son of Ephraim or Manasseh? In order to have this prophecy fulfilled, the Nephites would have had to come down through the line of Joseph’s son, Ephraim, not Manasseh. According to The Bible (Ezekiel 37^{16, 19}), Ephraim should have been the ancestor of Lehi (if he had ever really existed); according to the Book of Mormon (Alma 10^2-3) Manasseh was Lehi’s actual ancestor. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon itself prove that Ezekiel 37 couldn’t possibly refer to the Book of Mormon!?

God makes it clear that both sticks would be right there in Ezekiel’s hands, at that very moment in time. Since the LDS ‘stick of Joseph’ wasn’t completed until after Jesus’ death, how could it possibly refer to the Book of Mormon, which was completed almost 2,000 years later? Who got it right, God or Joseph Smith?
For the Mormon Church to be correct these verses would have to refer to Judahalone; but these verses speak of all the tribes ofIsrael (see Genesis through Kings).Judah is given no special treatment or extra attention, which is strange if it refers to the very Word of God – the Bible itself. That’s because it speaks of a nation and not the Bible.
Ezekiel is relaying to the people the prophecy that God had given to him. He even quotes God directly by using the expression, “Thus saith the Lord”, adding authority and authenticity to the prophecy. Why should v 22 be any different, or involve a separate issue, from the previous seven verses as the Mormon Church would have one believe? Where’s the grammatical or contextual evidence to support this view?
If all of the above were not sufficient proof that the book of Mormon was not foretold in the Old Testament, then let us turn to the Mormon author Everett Landon, who wrote The Book of Mormon Foundation. Mr Landon, at one time, fully accepted the idea that the ‘Ezekiel sticks’ prophesied of the connection between the bible and the book of Mormon. Upon further investigation and research, he concluded:

“Those readers of this treatise who are aware of the belief that the two sticks discussed in Ezekiel 37 point to the Bible and Book of Mormon both find in our comments a departure from that viewpoint… Having once believed the sticks did symbolize the said Scriptures, we differ in a spirit of considerable charity toward those who still so believe…. The words Ezekiel was to write were dictated to him by the Lord. We emphasize, he was to write upon two sticks, (or staves as stated in the Septuagint Bible). Not upon scrolls, plates, rolls, papyri, or in books or records. The traditional view of the sticks as books or records has been a stumbling block to many. Ezekiel understood fully what a ‘roll of a book’ was, (Ezek. 2 ⁹) and did not need to mince words in saying ‘stick’ if he actually meant ‘book’, or ‘record’…. Let Book of Mormon believers be not dismayed. In the Bible and the Holy Spirit we have ample proof of the Book of Mormon.” [The Book of Mormon Foundation, January, February, March 1971, pp. 7-8]

Here we see this Mormon author make it clear that Mormons shouldn’t refer to scroll as sticks, as they have been doing, in an effort to convince us that the Book of Mormon is scriptural, as this [Mormon] approach has become a “stumbling block” to the Mormon Church itself, and its missionaries, who teach this false interpretation! He makes it clear that, just because the LDS church can’t really prove this point, we can still fall back on the “Bible” (regarded by the LDS church as defective anyway) and the “Holy Spirit” (referring to a different spirit, and not the one found in the biblical Scriptures).

Commenting on Isaiah 29^1-4 and the Book of Mormon.

V 1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! Add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. V 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. V 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. V 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Again, LeGrand Richards says of verse 4 in A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, p68, “Truly it has a familiar spirit, for it contains the words of the prophets of the God of Israel.”

He is content to use this passage to support the OT prophecy of the Book of Mormon. It is interesting, and very significant, that Richards appears to find comfort in the fact that these spirits are ‘familiar’. In A Marvellous Work and A Wonder, LeGrand refers to 2 Nephi 26^15-17, asking us to compare it with this passage – one supporting the other, presumably (p68). We find the Book of Mormon prophet Moroni, in Moroni 10²⁷, applying this prophecy in support of the Mormon notion that it speaks of a record of an ancient people speaking “out of the dust”, demonstrating that the Book of Mormon has its own ‘familiar spirit’. The term ‘familiar’ refers to a relational aspect of association, relating to servitude. The KJV translates the Hebrew word bwOa (‘owb) as “familiar spirits”. The NIV and NAS translate this as “mediums”. This expression carries the idea of ‘medium, ghost, troubled spirit (of the dead), spirit of divination, conjuring ghost, one who calls up spirits from the abyss to foretell future events, wizard, necromancer, one who evokes the dead, spirit of a dead one, sorcerer, occultist and witch’ (see Strong’s Concordance – 178; Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament – 37a; Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary pp. 241-242; The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon – p15a; The Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance of the Old Testament – p29; Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies – p. 157; Bible Works 7; Expository Dictionary of Bible Words by Stephen D Renn (former Head of Biblical Studies and Academic Dean at the Sydney Missionary and Bible College, lecturing in Old Testament and Biblical Hebrew) – Hendrickson Pub.). I recommend Angels: Elect & Evil, Revised
by C. Fred Dickason (Moody Publishers) for a full picture of demons in the Bible.

The Old Testament uses this word 16 times (Lev. 19³¹; 20^{6, 27}; Deut. 18^9-14; 1 Sam 28^{3, 7, 8, 9}; 2 Kings 21⁶; 23²⁴; 1 Chron. 10^{13, 14}; 2 Chron. 33⁶; Job 32¹⁹; Isa. 8¹⁹ 19³; 29⁴. In every case, this word refers to something unholy, occultic, evil, satanic or an abomination. God forbade Israel to seek information by this means, which was common practice among the pagans (Lev. 19³¹; Deut. 18¹¹). According to Deut. 13, “Necromancy was so contrary to God’s commands that its practitioners were under the death penalty” (Vine’s p. 242). Wasn’t this the sin that completed Saul’s wickedness, for which he was finally rejected of God, 1 Chr. 10¹³? The Bible tell us, with regard to familiar spirits, that they are demons, whose only function is to propagate the will and message of their master, Satan. They use people to spread lies and deceit, in order to frustrate and thwart the Kingdom of God. The Bible tells us that to knowingly and wilfully open oneself to the work of demons is an evil thing, (Deuteronomy 18^10-12a). Is this what LeGrand Richards suggests we should do? Is he advocating that we should embrace pagan necromancy against the Will of God?

A familiar spirit, then, is a demon who identifies itself with another person. We also see similar demon-human relationships in the New Testament: Matthew 9³², 12^43-45, 15²², 17^15-18; Mark 5^1-20, 9^17-26; Acts 16^16-18, 19^15-16; 1 Timothy 4¹.

 Isaiah is speaking to laeyrIa] Ari’el (“lion or lioness of God”) a symbolic name for Jerusalem (see Strong’s – 740; The Englishman’s Hebrew Concordance of the OT – p155; Encyclopædia of the Bible; Edited by Prof. Walter A. Elwell, Vol. 1, pp. 168-169; Pub. Baker; Westminster Dictionary of the Bible by the late Prof. John D Davis, PhD, DD, LLD, – revised by Henry Snyder Gehman PhD, STD, Prof. of Semitic languages – p40, Pub. Collins); it never refers to, or speaks of, a distant people or their buried records!

 It refers to actual, historical events, which took place. How could it then apply to events which might occur, except in the minds of Mormon interpreters?!

In the case of Isaiah 29⁴, it is made very clear that this word speaks of the ‘troubled spirits of the dead’. Note what God has to say about those who have a “familiar spirit” in Lev. 19³¹; 20^{6, 27}; Deut. 18^9-12. This makes it very clear that the Mormon Church believes that the Book of Mormon has a “familiar spirit”.

Despite the fact that this text is actually speaking about Israel, it seems that the Mormon Church, in its rush to re-interpret the Bible yet again, has aligned both itself and the Book of Mormon with Witchcraft and, ultimately, Satan.

Posted in Book of Mormon | Tagged Bible, Book of Mormon, Book of Mormon Prophecied in the bible, Ezekiel 37 Two Sticks, Mormon.co.uk | Leave a comment

Testimony of a Christian.

Posted on December 7, 2011 by Bobby

This is a testimony wrote out by my new friend Thad of Rogma ministries, drawing on Mormon as well as Christian material to draw on the reality of His salvation in Christ, please enjoy and leave a comment.

When you get the chance to meet up with, and share a discussion with a Mormon missionary, inevitably the issue if testimonies will come up. It may be your testimony or one of the missionary’s testimonies. A Christian’s testimony speaks about how they have received forgiveness for sin by God’s Grace and by trusting alone in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for their forgiveness. A Christian’s testimony speaks about how we moved from our ‘old’ or former life of sin to a relationship where we came to have a personal relationship with the God of the Bible by the power of the Holy Ghost/Spirit in our hearts. The focus of our testimony, whilst including information or details about how we came to this position, should be about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). A Christian’s testimony speaks of our conversion experience, but should include how God continues to work in our lives, continuing to encourage and strengthen us through the process of sanctification (John 17:16; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Hebrews 10:10). This is a once-for-ever separation (being made holy and set apart), eternally unto God. This is a continual and progressive process, where our relationship with God, which develops and matures into something stronger and more meaningful. This maturing relationship must be centred on the Lord and His faithfulness, (Psalm 18:2, 6). Some Christians explain it as the ‘before and after’ picture of a Christian – from a state of being unsaved to a state of being saved.

How is this Christian testimony different to the Mormon (LDS) testimony?

The Mormon missionary will usually ‘bear’ (tell or present) their testimony during a discussion, where the conversation focuses on doctrine, some aspect of LDS history or teaching, where they don’t have an answer or defence, or even where they ‘feel’ that the conversation has become contentious or has the ‘mark’ or ‘spirit’ of contention. Again, this is where they feel that they don’t have a ready defence or feel that the discussion isn’t following LDS church teachings, e.g. an error, contradiction, untruth, change of doctrine has been highlighted regarding the LDS church and that pair of missionaries cannot defend the LDS church or challenge the issue at hand. For the Mormon missionary, the bearing of their testimony IS the challenge and acts as a type of defence mechanism to ‘neutralise’ or limit the challenge to their church. It convinces them that the reciting of this testimony will convince the investigator (enquirer) and ‘prove’ to them that the LDS church is the only correct church on earth and the only one to act with God’s authority. The Mormon testimony is different to the Christian’s testimony in that it contains usually five principal parts, where the missionary will state as a matter of ‘fact’ that they ‘know’ the following to be true. These are:

God is their Heavenly Father – they do not accept the Trinity and believe that God was once a man. Their concept of God is not scripturally based.
Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – despite historical evidence to the contrary, even within the LDS church’s teachings
The church is led by a living prophet today – This person is regarded as a Prophet, Seer and Revelator and, in theory, directs the LDS church today
Jesus Christ is their Saviour and Redeemer – despite the teachings of the LDS church that the Jesus of Mormonism isn’t the Jesus of the Bible
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s only church on earth today – this was supposed to have been ordained by God because the LDS church maintains that a General (global/worldwide) Apostasy took place, removing God’s authority from the earth – regardless of the Bible’s teachings, the Christian Church’s teachings, LDS teachings (contradicting this), Jesus Christ’s promises, or the fact that the LDS church can’t say exactly when the apostasy took place nor can they point to any definitive historical event of it.

I believe it is important for a Christian to have a full, true testimony, when speaking to any non Christian group; but, it is also important to present our testimony in a Mormon-style fashion, which will open up the discussion in a non-confrontational and contentious, but engaging manner.

To that end, I have decided to present a testimony (Mormon-style) whilst working with Mormon missionaries

I begin by stating to the missionaries that I would like to “bear to you my testimony”, that I know for sure that not only is the Jesus Christ of the Bible, whom I love and serve able to keep His promises for all eternity, but the Jesus I speak of and believe in is the Jesus testified of in the Holy Scriptures I know that to be true, because:

I know that there is only One, True and Eternal God, unchangeable, unique, and all-powerful. (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10, 44:5-8; Psalm 90:2, 96:5; Mal. 3:6; John 10:30-34; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Eph. 4:5; James 1:17). [Mormonism also teaches this fact: Book of Mormon: Testimony of Three Witnesses; Alma 11: 26-39, 44; 41:8: 2 Nephi 29:9; 31:21; Mormon 7:7, 22; Moroni 8:18; 3 Nephi 11:27; D&C 20:17, 76:4; 28; Isaiah 44: 6, 8 (JST remains unchanged); Book of Moses 1:6.

I know that this One, True God created all things; there is nothing that exists anywhere that He did not bring into existence. (Gen. 1:1, 16 [Job. 9-4-8, Psa. 8:3, Psa. 33:6, 102:25, 136-7-9, Psa. 147:4, Jer. 31:35]; Nehemiah 9:6; Isa. 40:22, 28, 41:4, 44:24, 45:12, 48:13; Jer. 10:10-11; John 1:3; Acts 4:24, 7:50, 14:15; Colossians 1:16, 17; Mormonism also teaches this fact: 2 Nephi 2:14; Book of Moses Ch. 2). I know that this One True God is spirit, and is not limited to time and space, both of which He Himself created. (2 Chron. 6:18; Jer. 23:24; John 4:24).

I know that man is the creation of God, and God should not be thought of as an exalted man, and did not pre-exist. (Zech 12:1; Psalm 50:21; Isa 29:16; Hosea 11:9; 1 Cor. 15:46; Mormonism also teaches this fact: Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36).

I know that Jesus is the Son of God the Father who is “spirit” (John 4:24) and “not man” (Hosea 11:9). His fleshly body WAS “begotten” of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 23; Mormonism also teaches this fact: Alma 18:26-28, 22:8-11);“He is NOT a son of an “exalted Man” whose fleshly body was NOT “begotten of the Holy Ghost.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-346; Family Home Evening, 1972, pp. 125-126; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 18)

I know that Jesus is the “mighty God, everlasting Father” (Isaiah 9:6), “the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8), who has always existed (Isaiah 44:6; 43:10; 41:4; 48:12; John 1:1-3; 8:58; 20:28, 29 Rev. 1:8; 2:8; 21:6,7; 22:13), because He is “without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.” (Hebrews 7:3; 1:8 [Ps. 45:6, 7])

I know that Jesus Christ has eternally existed as God.(Micah 5:2; John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-6; Heb 1:10). [Mormonism also teaches this: Book of Mormon, title page]

I know that God reside in (indwells) us (1 Cor. 3:16; Eph. 3:17; 1 John 4:12). Mormonism also teaches this fact: Alma 34:36

I know that Jesus Christ created all things, without exception. (John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:1-3); He is the one who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings (Revelation 19:16), the Creator of all, including Lucifer (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17) Mormonism also teaches this fact- He is NOT my spirit-brother, nor is he the spirit brother of Lucifer. (Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18)

I know that the blood of Jesus Christ, the Saviour, cleanses from all sin. (Col. 1:19-20, 2:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7);

I know that He is the all-sufficient Saviour, who cleanses us from “all” sins (1 John 1:7, 9) and saves us “to the uttermost” (Hebrews 7:25), when we lay aside all of our self-righteousness and come to Him on the basis of faith alone (Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 11:6; Philippians 3:9);

I know that God is the ALMIGHTY (Gen. 17:1) and the Mighty (Is.10:21; Jer. 32:18; Luke 1:49) Jehovah (Yahweh) God who says, “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD… that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Exodus 20:2, 3; Deut. 4:35, 39; 6:4, 5; 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:1-2; 2 Sa, 22:32; Isaiah 43:10, 13; 44:6-8, 24; 45:5-6, 18, 21-22, 51; 46:9; John 5:42-44; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; James 2:9; Jude 25). He is NOT “a god” among other “gods” who had a Father God “formed” before him. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. p. 370; 345-346; Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 1853, p. 132)

I know that full and complete salvation is the work of God’s grace, not faith + works, such as Baptism (Eph. 2:8-10) Mormonism also teaches this fact: Moroni 8:22, 23; 2 Nephi 9:25, 26; Mosiah 15:24-27).

I know that the Bible is God’s inerrant, authoritative, and sufficient revelation to man, in need of no supplements or corrections. (2 Tim. 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21; Jude 3).

I know that only Heaven or hell awaits me, (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:41, 46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15) and no middle place: Mormonism also teaches this fact: 1 Nephi 15:35 ; 2 Nephi 28:22 ; Mosiah 16:11; 27:31; Alma 41:4-8; 42:16

I believe that there are no second chances after death, and that death seals our fate (Hebrews 9:27) Mormonism also teaches this fact: Mosiah 2:36-39; Alma 34:32-35

I know that Jesus is NOT a created being who had a point in time when he did not exist. (Gospel Principles, p 11; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, 1992, p. 1670; Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 129)

I know that man is spiritually dead, enslaved to sin, unable to come to Christ outside of enablement and grace of the Father. (John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:1-5).

This is my testimony, which I believe is given to me by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. The Bible makes it clear that the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirits that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16) and that He leads His people into all truth (John 16:13).

I share this testimony with you because I believe the issues mentioned define the Christian Gospel itself. This Gospel requires that we know the One, True God (John 17:3); a false god cannot save us. The gospel requires that we know the true Jesus Christ, since a false Christ cannot save (John 8:24, 2 Corinthians 11:4). And the true gospel alone can bring salvation, which is why we are warned about those who would preach a false gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

I have given you my testimony, which does not decide or determine truth. My testimony is a wonderful and precious thing, but it is not how I know the truth. My testimony must be subjected to, and tested by, a higher authority – the Bible (1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:21). No matter how strongly I may “feel” in my heart about something, I must submit my feelings to the correction of the Word of God, as I know the heart is a deceiver (Proverbs 14:12; 28:26; Isaiah 64:6: Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 10:2-4). So while you and I may have testimonies that conflict, I can take my testimony to the Word of God and demonstrate how it is consistent not only with some of the Bible, but with the entire Bible. My beliefs come from the Bible, and I would be glad to demonstrate this to you.

That is why we need to heed the words of the apostle, Paul, when he said, “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or is ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” —2 Corinthians 11:3-4. Paul warns us about ‘another Jesus’, which is not of the Bible; this other ‘Jesus’ is the one worshipped by the LDS church, according to Gordon B. Hinckley, “President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.’ “—LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p. 7. This ‘Jesus’ of the LDS church cannot bring salvation or eternal life because, “…We cannot obtain salvation and eternal life by worshipping fake Christs…” — Elder Bernard P. Brockbank, The Ensign, May 1977, pp. 26-27

Christianity claims to be God’s truth. As such, there is no room, nor reason, for compromising on the essential elements of the faith. Christianity is unalterably monotheistic: we believe in only one true and eternal God, which was once taught by Mormonism. As I understand it, Mormonism presents a different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel. Because we love God, honour His truth, and desire others to know Him, I share this information with you.

As a true believer in Jesus Christ, I know that I:

Am delivered from the power of darkness…Col. 1:13
Am redeemed…Col. 1:14
Have eternal, everlasting life…John 3:15-16, 1 John 5:13
Am a child of God, through adoption…John 1:12-13; 1 John 3:1, 2
Am passed from death into life…John 5:24
Am reconciled to God by the death of His Son…Rom 5:10; Col. 1:22
Am justified by the blood of Christ…John 1:29; Rom 5:9; 1 John 1:7
Am holy and without blame…Eph 1:4; 1Cor 1:8
Have no condemnation…Rom 8:1
Have forgiveness of sins through His blood…Eph 1:7: 1 John 1:7
Have Christ dwelling in me…Col. 1:27
Am complete in Christ…Col. 2:10
Have heavenly citizenship and can know that I am saved …Phil 3:20; I John 5:13
Am sealed with the Holy Spirit…Eph 1:13
Am in the church (body of Christ)…Acts 2:47; 1Cor 12:18
Am baptized by the Holy Spirit…John 7:39; 1Cor 12:13
Have all my needs supplied…Phil 4:19; 1 Peter 5:7
Have constant availability of God our Father, because of the priesthood of Jesus Christ Himself…1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15-16
Am thoroughly furnished unto all good works by the Bible…2 Timothy 3:16-17
Have a wonderful Saviour, Who is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we could ask or think…Eph 3:20

God bless,

Thaddeus

Posted in Testimony | Tagged Bobby Gilpin, Christian Testimony, LDS Church, Mormon, Mormon Testimony, Mormon UK, Rogma Ministries, UK Partnerships for Christ, UPFC.org.uk | 1 Comment

Why Should Christians reach out to Mormons.

Posted on November 10, 2011 by Bobby

As a one off I thought I would do a post explaining the reasons why I do this ministry. A recent discussion with a Mormon showed me that often the view is that people do this kind of ministry just because we have some hatred of mormons or mormonism, and we just want to tear down a church they love. The term thrown around is anti-mormon, if someone openly speaks against the LDS church thats what they are and they are not to be listened to.

What I want to do is show that Christians like me seeking to reach out to Mormons are doing first out of a reverence for God, and secondly out of a deep love for Mormons and desire to present to the truth of Christ they so need to hear.

As well as this I want to speak to Christians who maybe wonder why it is worth speaking to Mormons anyway, surely our time is better spent reaching people who have no knowledge of God.

So this post is divided into these sections.

1, Christians have a duty to respond to Mormonism as doing so upholds the greatness of God and declares His glory, in the face of teachings about Him that seek to make Him something lesser than He is.
2, If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible, then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.
3, If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

1, “As man is, God once was, as God is man may become” is a familiar quote that comes from Lorenzo snow an early Mormon president and captures the heart of the biggest problem of all in Mormonism, lets start with what the bible says about God.

Genesis 1:1-5

¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. ³ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. ⁴ God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. ⁵ God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born
Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within you.

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Isaiah 44:6-8 ⁶ “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
⁷ ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place. ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”

Psalm 139:4-7 ⁴ Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it. ⁷ Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

So just from these few verses we see that God has been God forever, created all things just by speaking it into being, that He is the only God, that He is able to do more than we could ever imagine He could do, and He knows all things as well as everything we will do or think before we do it, this is the God of the bible. He is so glorious that we see here the reason why He made us.

Ephesians 1:5-6 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ⁶ to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Isaiah 43:6-7 “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
⁷ Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”

This God created is so that we might glorify Him, some people says thats arrogant but if you consider just how great this God is, you see that He is worthy of this praise and He has created us in such a way that our ultimate satisfaction comes from Him, going back to psalm 139 we see this:

Psalm 139:5-6 ⁵ You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

We see this heart from Paul also:

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ²² But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. ²³ But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

God wants us in the process of knowing Him, and glorifying Him to love it, He is the ultimate source of human satisfaction, looking anywhere else for our satisfaction, and turning our God given desire to worship anywhere else leaves us lost and unsatisfied and denies the God of the bible of His rightful worship.

So what does Mormonism say about God.

Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism in His most famous sermon, the King Follet discourse said this:

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

We see this in Mormon Scripture Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans”.

What we see in Momonism is a change from God being the eternal all powerful God to a man who was exalted into the position of godhood, he is one of potentially billions of gods and is the god of our planet. Mormon apologists overcome the accusation that Mormons are polytheists which means the belief in many gods to called themselves henotheists which is the belief in many gods but the worship of one, either way Gods declaration in Isaiah 44:8 that He knows of no other gods, raises a big question.

Joseph Smith also said: “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a Father? And where was there ever a Father without first being a son? (History of the Church, Volume 6, p.476)

As you might expect this leads to the implication that God was once a sinner like you and me, a friend of mine Aaron Shafovaloff in Utah has interviewed various Mormons on this subject, please take a look here.

So in Mormonism God becomes a man like us, subject to the same laws of creation that we are, just exalted to a higher position, this leads to the other natural conclusion that must follow from this thinking that God in heaven is creating spirit children with His wife, the teaching in the Mormon church is that as well as a heavenly Father we have a heavenly Mother.

In 1845, after the murder of Joseph Smith, the poet Eliza Roxcy Snow, published a poem entitled My Father in Heaven, (later titled Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother, now used as the lyrics in the popular Latter-day Saint hymn O My Father), acknowledging the existence of a Heavenly Mother.^[11] This hymn contained the following language:

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I’ve a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

in your royal courts on high?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother_%28Mormonism%29)

There is no mention of ther Heavenly Mother in Mormon scripture that I know of, the most recent LDS authority quote comes from Gordon B Hinckley who was the Mormon prophet up to his death in 2008.

“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven” (Gordon Hinckley, “Daughters of God,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1991, p. 100. See also The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 257).

Logic and reason, this logic and reason that applies to humanity is here implied that is must apply to God, with Christianity God made us in His image, He made us like Him in aspects of His nature and goodness, however we see in the bible that He is far above us, has always been God and is the only God. Mormonism brings God down to being in our image and applies our limitations to Him, this is blasphemy at a very high level and as Christians we have a duty to uphold our Gods glory, and respond to this, not only that we might communicate the truth of God to Mormons, but that we might declare His glory.

On we go to point 2 which is If Mormonism teaches a Christ that is different to the one in the bible then this is a Christ that does not save and therefore Mormons are still dead in their sins.

What we believe about Jesus is absolutely essential to our salvation, if we get that wrong no matter how good our lives are, or how sincere we are then we are lost.

This is supported by Mormon Church owned, Brigham Young university (BYU) Professor Jeffrey Marsh.

“There is no salvation in false doctrine, no redeeming power in misunderstanding about Jesus Christ, His divinity, nor His mission. As He declared, our ability to inherit eternal life is directly related to our understanding of Christ, and His doctrines (see 3 Nephi 27:15-17; John 17:3, 16-17)” (BYU Associate professor W. Jeffrey Marsh, “Doctrine of Christ restored to the world,” Church News, January 3, 2004, p. 6).

Jesus said unless you believe that I am He, you will be dead in your sins (John 8:24) this is reffering back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself to Moses as being I am that I am. Jesus is the I am, He is God, all of the attributes of God then apply to Him, meaning uncreated, creator, we see this in Phillipians 2:1-10

¹ Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, ² make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. ³ Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; ⁴ do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. ⁵ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. ⁹ For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, ¹⁰ so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Jesus in very nature with God did not grasp His equality with God but emptied Himself to be a man taking death for us, we see this in John 17:5.

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The glory which Jesus gets in Philippians 2:9-10 is not some reward for living out His plan of salvation which is what the Mormon church teaches, but a restoration of the glory He had before He came to the earth.

The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus was the first spirit child to be born to His heavenly parents in Heaven and when there was a council in heaven of the gods deciding ho should be the saviour Jesus and His spirit brother Lucifer also born to these parents came up with their ideas. Jesus idea was chosen Lucifer and His followers, now demons rebelled and were cast down to hell.

Jesus came to earth and while taking the price for us He was also living ut His wn plan of salvation, thus this glorification He recieved after that in Mormon theology was His exaltation which was a reward for Him for doing so good on the earth, Jesus needed to get a body and do this whether He was the saviour or not.

6th Mormon Prophet Joseph f Smith said this:

“Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153).

10th Mormon Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said this

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith
“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).

The difference between us and Jesus, is that Jesus was the firstborn in heaven and so had the status of being a god right from the start, just coming to earth and doing what He did exalted Him further. Bruce Mckonkie a previous Mormon Apostle said this:

“Christ stands preeminent among all the spirit children of the Father. While yet in preexistence he became ‘like unto God’” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pp. 442-443).

This leads to the question where is the humility in Philippians 2? If Jesus coming to erth and dying for us actually led to greater glory for Himself why is this described in Philippians 2 as humility, letting go of His equaity with God and coming to earth as a man? This is what Mormonism misses, Jesus was fully God, glorious, eternal, creator everything that God is, before He came to earth and after, yet again Mormonism here brings down God to being subject to a humans reasoing and limitations, if we have to live out a plan of salvation so does Christ.

As a side note the Mormon church also teaches that the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost as they call Him will also one day have to come to earth in a body and live out His plan of salvation.

Joseph Smith said that, “The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

So we see that the Christ Mormonism believes in is not the Jesus of the bible, the Jesus of the bible stepped down in coming to earth and gave Himself for us, the Jesus of Mormonism actually earned His exaltation through coming to the earth and ultimately was exalted for His work on the cross and in gethsemane. Yet again we as Christians must speak up against this when we have the opportunity too, for the sake of the salvaion of Mormons and the glory of God.

Ok final point. If Mormonism is not the biblical gospel then through its laws and ordnances it is placing rules and restrictions on its members that weigh them with burden, down rather than let them live in the freedom that is found in Christ.

So a Mormons goal ultimately is to live out all of the laws and ordnances of the Mormon gospel so that they might recieve the same exaltation that their heavenly Father did.

Joseph Smith said:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel-you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348. See also Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 305).

Current Mormon Prophet Thomas Monson said

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 56).

And how are they earned?

“The Celestial inheritance is for those who have accepted the Gospel of Christ and have rendered valiant service in the cause of righteousness; those who have yielded obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 287).

Thats right all of them, and here they are:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–

1. Love and worship God.

2. Love our neighbor.

3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

4. Live the law of chastity.

5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.

6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

7. Speak the truth always.

8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.

9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

13. Have family and individual prayers every day.

14. Honor our parents.

15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

16. Study the scriptures.

17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

(http://defendingcontending.com/2007/12/10/requirements-for-mormon-salvation/)

All of these must be obeyed for exaltation, which for Mormon is the fullest meaning of salvation. Mormons that seek to be in good standing and obey these have a life of pressure and expectation. The The Mormon church owned newspaper Deseret News identified in 2007 that Utah a state that is 68% Mormon has the highest rate of depression in the USA (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695231614/Utah-leads-the-nation-in-rates-of-depression.html)

This article put together in the last month shows that More people in Utah think about killing themselves than anywhere else in the United States.

Can we honestly think the pressures of Mormonism has nothing to do with this?

Yet again what does the bible say:

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Compare that to the big list, if you do not work but trust Jesus you are righteouss, this righteousness is all you need to be acceptable to God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ⁹ not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Salvation is a work of Christ of His grace. We are supposed to be free from burden by knowing Christ not immersed in it. Does this mean Christianity teaches we can be saved and do nothing? In a sense yes as none of our works save us, however as the ephesians 2 quote above says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, so when we are saved God has plans for us and things for us to do, however these are works of love that comes from having from having the love of Christ in us. Not works that a slavemaster requires of us if we want to earn big rewards.

Thats the difference between following Christ and Religion, His burden is light, religions burden is ever increasing in weight.

So if your a Christian reading this please remember this the next time you meet a Mormon, they are fantastic people subject to a religion that puts much pressure on them for something Christ would love to give them if they would only trust Him, tell them about Him.

If your a Mormon reading this please understand that my motives and the motives of others like me is not hate or a desire to tear down, but love and a desire to show you how great Christ is and how much He loves you and has for you. Even if you disagree with what I have said which you likely will, I want you to understand the heart behind this ministry.

As ever please leave your thoughts.

Posted in UK Partnerships for Christ, Why reach out to Mormons | Tagged God never sinned, Heavenly Mother, LDS UK, Mormon, Mormon UK, Reaching Latter day saints, Reaching Mormons, Why Should Christians reach out to Mormons | 2 Comments

The Sacrament.

Posted on October 2, 2011 by Bobby

Like Many Christian Churches, the Mormon Church has a section of its sunday Mornings that are set aside to take of bread and wine, or juice, or water in their case.

As above this is served by well dressed young men who hold a level of Mormon Priesthood. This in itself is a good Christian principle. Again like Christian Churches this is done in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.

LDS.org says this about the Sacrament:

On the night before His Crucifixion, Jesus Christ met with His Apostles and instituted the sacrament (see Luke 22:19–20). After His Resurrection, He instituted the sacrament among the Nephites (see 3 Nephi 18:1–11). Today the sacrament is an ordinance in which Church members partake of bread and water in remembrance of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice. This ordinance is an essential part of worship and spiritual development. Through this ordinance, Church members renew the covenants they made with God when they were baptized

Under additional information it also says this:

Partaking of the sacrament is a witness to God that the remembrance of His Son will extend beyond the short time of that sacred ordinance. Part of this ordinance is a promise to remember Him always and a witness of individual willingness to take upon oneself the name of Jesus Christ and to keep His commandments. In partaking of the sacrament and making these commitments, Church members renew the covenant they made at baptism (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37).

This paragraph touches on where I am going with this, the idea that not only is the Sacrament a remembrance of Christ but its a weekly renewal of the covenant made at baptism. What is that covenant?

The Baptismal Covenant

Those who are baptized enter into a covenant with God to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37). Church members renew this covenant each time they partake of the sacrament (see D&C 20:77, 79).

Those who keep the covenants they made at baptism are blessed by the Lord for their faithfulness. Some of the blessings include the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, the remission of sins, and the privilege of being spiritually reborn. If they continue faithfully, they are promised eternal life (see 2 Nephi 31:19–20).

So at baptism, this says LDS members are taking on the name of Jesus Christ covenanting to keep the commandments, and are spiritually reborn, if they continue faithfully, so then the sacrament is a weekly renewal of this covenant.

So what does this mean? To Christians the idea of coming to God and humbly saying I have messed up lately and I just want to recommit myself to You is nothing new. However for us when you are born again and when you have recieved justification, meaning righteousness in the sight of God this is a one time event.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Which results in this

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

and this:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So if you are a Christians with faith in Christ, He now lives in you and you are saved from the consequences of your sin as a result of this new covenant of grace. So is the LDS church living in this same covenant?

2nd Mormon President Brigham young regarding the sacrament said:

“Its observance is as necessary to our salvation as any other of the ordinances and commandments that have been instituted in order that the people may be sanctified, that Jesus may bless them and give unto them his spirit, and guide and direct them that they may secure unto themselves life eternal.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 266).

This next more recent quote captures my point fully.

“The scriptures repeatedly teach that the Spirit of the Lord will not dwell in an unclean tabernacle. When we worthily partake of the sacrament, we are promised that we will ‘always have his Spirit to be with [us].’ To qualify for that promise we covenant that we will ‘always remember him’ (D&C 20:77). (Dallin H. Oaks, “Pornography,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2005, p. 88. Brackets in original).

A question from the Apostle Paul comes to mind:

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What do you think his answer was?

So what the sacrament is, is a weekly reminder of the needs of LDS members to live in a manner that is worthy and renew their covenant in this maner of living and thus renew the presence of the Holy Ghost in their lives, without this renewal the Spirit would cease to dwell with them and ultimately their whole basis for staying worthy and current in the Mormon gospel would cease.

In the Book of Mormon, Mormon 9:29 it says:

“See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out”

You must stay worthy to take the sacament and you also must take the sacrament not to be cast out.

So why is this such a problem, well our covenant is between us and Christ and it is a forever covenant that once in place, stays in place, Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ, its a legal agreement between you and God that once you are in Christ you are free from the consequence of sin and this is not something that regularly needs to be topped up by having water and bread.

What about being worthy to take the sacrament, think about who was there in the last supper when Jesus passed around the bread and wine.

Who is it, well its Judas, early in the book of John what did Jesus say about Judas?

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Yet despite this Judas is there in the last supper, taking the sacrament as the LDS would say. Why would Jesus allow someone so unworthy to take it?

The answer is that taking this bread and wine is not a covenant renewal between a person and God that must only be taken by someone who is worthy but it is as Jesus said:

1 Corinthians 11:24-25²⁴And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

²⁵After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Its this simple, we take bread and wine, or water, or juice, in remembrance of Him, its that simple, anyone can do it that loves Him and wants to remember and honour Him.

This idea of this “Sacrament” as being a requirement in order to retain the Holy Ghosts presence is a man made requirement similar to that of the Pharisees, taking Gods ways and making them harder on people than God ever wanted.

Posted in The Sacrament | Tagged LDS UK, Mormon, Mormon Sacrament, Mormon UK, Sacrament, Sacrament UK | 3 Comments

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