For those who dont know Sandra Tanner is a descendent of Brigham Young who left the Mormon church many years ago and since then has produced masses of information about the Mormon church. Their Ministry website www.utlm.org is probably the best website on the internet to see many aspects of the Mormon church you would never hear through official Church releases.

Impossible Gospel

Shortly before Easter I received a written invitation to meet with the local LDS Bishop and Stake President on Wednesday 25th April. I had not been attending church for three and a half years, and during that time had had just three fairly superficial exchanges with the bishop. Bishop Wiltshire is a caring, self-effacing man with little desire, I sense, to occupy that particular position of responsibility; he freely admits that he finds it challenging to deal with what he terms “intellectual matters”. By this he means the hard-to-explain anomalies in real LDS church history, which have caused me to re-evaluate my commitment to the church.

During the first of those visits Bishop Wiltshire rather apologetically explained that he was not prepared to discuss my concerns about LDS history, and felt he should warn me that if I shared whatever I had discovered with anyone outside of my immediate family, then I would likely be considered in apostasy, and might face church discipline. The second visit was really to interview my daughter, after which he briefly repeated his previous message to me. The third occasion followed our son’s tragic death in September 2010, when, as bishop, he dutifully dropped in to express his condolences. That period was a complete blur, and I only recall that he sat with us for a few minutes, not really knowing what to say.

So why, after so long, and so many missed opportunities to support us emotionally through our challenges and grief, did the local leadership now want me to go to see them? When I posed that question to them, I was answered that the purpose of the meeting would be to discuss “personal thoughts and feelings about… testimony, the Church and its teachings”. It appears that I had rattled a few cages by recently posting a Public Apology for having followed the LDS church’s racist teachings when I was a new convert to Mormonism.

I had been baptised in 1971, at the age of 18, but was not made aware of LDS racist issues until some while later. At that period of LDS history men of African descent were still denied the privileges of priesthood and of being sealed to their families in the Mormon temple, as members of all other races were. This was because Africans/”negroes” were depicted in LDS theology as bearing the mark of Cain, which indicated that they had been less valiant in the pre-existence, and were therefore spiritually inferior.

I had two black Zimbabwean friends, and when I enthusiastically tried to introduce them to the LDS missionaries in 1972 I was taken to one side by the Mission President, and advised that it would be better if they were not entertained as prospective converts, as they could never share in the eternal blessings that were mine to claim as a white man. For the first six or so years of my membership I accepted with unease this deeply racist stance, believing it must have a divine purpose of some sort. Then, in June 1978, the priesthood ban was removed by the church, to my relief, and the relief of most LDS members; however, the insidious dogma of spiritual inferiority took many more years for me to eradicate from my understanding. It was for this reason that earlier this year I drafted and signed my Public Apology to people of Black African descent. Others added their signature to mine, and sought to give it publicity among LDS and ex-LDS friends.

In a short time the Public Apology came to the attention of certain members of my local LDS congregation, in Yeovil, who were very critical of my actions, not, I believe, because they had any intention of justifying racism, but because the Apology inferred that the LDS church had been at fault, and that past church leaders had been uninspired. Their criticisms were accurate, if unwarranted, for I do indeed hold past leadership responsible for this abomination, and unequivocally declare that these were never God’s intended teachings.

So complaints having been made, it appears that at the meeting on 25th April, I shall be asked to say sorry for having said sorry! And, my intention is to tell Bishop Wiltshire, and Stake President Crew, “sorry, but I’m not going to say sorry for feeling as I do, or for expressing those feelings publicly as is my right”.

And then we shall encounter an impasse, and I anticipate that my LDS membership will be placed on the line. It seems likely, and perhaps inevitable that I shall be asked to appear before a disciplinary council, (church court), in due course, and will lose my LDS membership if I am not prepared to relent. Such a decision, if taken by President Crew, would, according to LDS theology, be extremely serious. It would spell the end of my eternal marriage contract to my wife of 32 years, Diana, (a faithful member since she joined in 1977), and would sever any eternal relationship I might enjoy with my children and my parents, and extended family members. The “sin” occasioning such extreme theological consequences would be that of exercising freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, which had reflected badly, though entirely honestly, on the LDS church’s historical position.

This, I think sets the scene for what may well become something of a saga over the coming weeks and months. I shall report further as the story develops.

Please enjoy and leave your thoughts.

 ”As I say, it never ceases to amaze me how gullible some of our Church members are”- Harold B. Lee, President and Prophet of the LDS Church in  “Admonitions for the Priesthood of God”, Ensign, Jan 1973

#1: The Mormon Church is the fastest growing religion in the world.

In south America and third world countries there may be some justification for this claim, however the sheer number of adherents to Catholicism and Islam make them far and away the fastest growing religions  in the world by birthrate alone.

So how do the Mormons justify this claim?

They do it by using percentage growth year to year. After all a million new Catholics a year is a very small number indeed percentage wise, how ever one hundred new ‘flying spaghetti monsterisits’ in year  represents a huge percentage increase.

#2: The LDS Church does not have a paid ministry.

While it’s true that LDS Church bishops and priests are not remunerated all General Authorities serving the LDS Church in Salt Lake City are paid a living allowance for their full-time service. And why not it’s scriptural after all

Doctrine and Covenants 42:71-73

71 And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counsellors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

72 Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counsellors and bishop.

73 And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church.

Doctrine and Covenants 51:13-14

13 And again, let the bishop appoint a storehouse unto this church; and let all things both in money and in meat, which are more than is needful for the wants of this people, be kept in the hands of the bishop.

14 And let him also reserve unto himself for his own wants, and for the wants of his family, as he shall be employed in doing this business.

#3: The Book of Mormon is the most correct book in the world and will tell you all about Mormon doctrine.

Since its initial publication the book of Mormon has had more than 3000 alterations made to it, despite the fact the Joseph Smith forbade the printers from proof reading it or altering it in any way whatsoever.

The Book of Mormon fails to teach the unique doctrine Latter-day Saints feel is necessary to believe and practice in order to become Gods and contradicts the Bible, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants on almost every issue of Mormon doctrine.

#4: All of Joseph Smith’s prophecies were accurate.

Nope, none of Joseph recorded prophesied given in his life time came to pass, he was close with the one about the civil war, but many commentators had also predicted that without recourse to God.

#5: Brigham Young taught Adam was God.

Adam was “our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do…Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation” (Journal of Discourses 1:50,51).

Oh yes he also taught that Adam was Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days and he also taught that Noah was Gabriel.

#6: The Book of Mormon has been proven by archaeology.

On January 25, 1999, The Chicago Tribune published an article about a mysterious object found on the bottom of Lake Michigan. “If one set out with the preposterous goal of making an oak Zeppelin 31 feet long, 10 feet in diameter, pointed at its ends, complete with an 18-inch hatch to crawl inside, this is pretty much what they’d get. Those who have strapped on air tanks and visited the thing say the craftsmanship used to build it is remarkable–four-inch-thick oak boards bent and fitted together and caulked watertight, like nothing built today.” Many LDS readers were quick to identify the object as a “Accredited barge” and messages were circulated wildly around the Internet – proof of the Book of Mormon!

Until, a follow-up article was published in the Chicago Tribune a few days later, identifying the object as a floating fuel tank built in the 1940s.

To date, no credible archaeologist outside of the Mormon Church considers the book to have any New World archaeological  value

 #7: Polygamy was a necessary evil in early Utah because there were more women than men.

Simply untrue, there was no surplus of unwed women and if there had been why did Joseph Smith feel the need to marry other men’s wives as well as unmarried girls?

Of 19th-century Mormon, families living in early Utah 20 to 30 percent were openly polygamous.

Mainstream Mormons do not practice polygamy today, but it remains part of their theology and has never disavowed elements of Mormon theology suggesting that polygamy will be practised in heaven. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion preached that polygamy was divinely sanctioned and married at least 33 women often without the consent of his first wife, Emma or the women’s husbands who were invariably called by the Lord to far off lands when Smith married them.

In 1890, mainstream Mormons yielded to political pressure and phased out the practice, in this life.

#8: Joseph Smith died as a “lamb led to the slaughter.”

Joseph Smith died using a pistol that was smuggled to him while incarcerated at Carthage jail. The LDS do not deny this according to The Documentary History of the Church, Joseph Smith pulled this six-shooter from his pocket “and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died” (John Taylor, vol. 7, pp. 102-103).

Until 1900 an oath was included in the Temple endowment that should the opportunity present itself all Mormon men must hunt down and kill without mercy the murderers of the Prophet. This oath was only dropped after the last of the Carthage Grays was known to be dead.

#9  Mormon women are second-class citizens.

Mainstream Mormonism does not accord women equal status with men. The worldwide LDS Church chain of command — including all positions of clerical, institutional and fiscal authority — is entirely male. Women cannot hold the lay priesthood shared in by men age 12 and older. The church’s Proclamation on the Family declares that men “preside” over the household. Unequal gender language is also a part of Mormon temple worship and marriage ceremonies.

#10.  Mormonism advocates theocracy.

Joseph Smith jnr. ran for president, there are Mormon MPs (senators, congressmen or equivalent). In almost every western country the civil and armed forces and law enforcement services all have a disproportionate number of Mormons serving in them at the encouragement of the first presidency.

Utah state government is run almost exclusively by Mormons.

There is now a Mormon presidential candidate again in the U.S. who believes leaders should give their ear to God.

#11. Mormon missionaries “give the milk before the meat;” 

Missionaries believe it is important to first get people into the Church and then the Holy Ghost will prepare them to receive the deeper and more controversial doctrines.

This is a polite term therefore for lying by omission. Imagine joining a library only to be told later that you had unwittingly also signed a commitment for life to donate an ten percent  of the cost of every book you read to Faber and Faber and that your wife has to sleep with Stephen King if he asks for her to.

 #12 HOLY UNDERWEAR!

Yes it is true and if you are a traditionalist you are never supposed to take them off, NEVER, even when showering or bathing.

It is not unique Joseph Smith’s contemporaries the Fox Sister who popularised Christian Spiritualism in New York at about the same time as Smith was heading west sold cotton undergarments conducive to better spirit communication at their séances. Convenient when you consider all three were seamstresses by day.

#20 The Dead WANT to be baptised as Mormons.

Mormons believe that once you are dead you will know the LDS church is true but will be unable to reach your full potential in the after life because you did not know during life.

Therefore, living Mormons can give you a second chance and carry out a proxy baptism for you in the temple, which can accept and use to go on to better things in the three Mormon hereafters.

#21 Jesus was born April 6th, 1.B.C.

This is according to leading Mormon apostle and theologian James E. Talmage he is quite definite about it in his book “Jesus the Christ”

However

In 1954, President J. Reuben Clark Jr., a counsellor in the First Presidency of the LDS Church, wrote that Christ’s birth was in December of 5 B.C. or early 4 B.C. (Clark at least was working from the historical death of Herod the Great in March or beginning of April in 4 B.C)

In 1979, Elder Bruce R. McConkie, also an apostle, declared December 5 B.C. to be absolutely the birth date of Jesus then changed his mind to an alternative dates in 4 B.C.

The date of April 6 comes from the date that the LDS Church was originally organized on April 6 1830, as recorded in the introduction to the D&C only it turns out that it wasn’t.

The recent discovery of the Book of Commandments and Revelations manuscript of D&C 20, however, showed that the verse was actually an introductory head note written by early church historian and scribe John Whitmer and dates the revelation as given on April 10 — not April 6

#22 Utah is the most Righteous place on Earth, God’s chosen land.

A 2009 nationwide study of anonymised credit-card receipts from a major on-line adult entertainment provider found that the state of Utah was the biggest consumer of on-line pornography per capita of home broadband users in the world. Utah averaged 5.47 adult content subscriptions per 1000 users.

#23 Big foot is Cain
Church Apostle David W. Patten described an encounter he had with Cain in 1835:

”As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange person walking beside me. . . . His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and travelled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, . . . and his mission was to destroy the souls of men.”

This entry was included in Spencer W. Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness, 1969. In 1980, sightings of the legendary Big foot were reported in South Weber, Utah. Members made connection with these sightings to Patten’s story of Cain, one unnamed source apparently said on Utah radio that this proves that the Saints are doing a good job. “When Satan sends Cain against Mormons, . . . they think, ‘we must be on the right path, or Satan wouldn’t bother sending in his most evil hordes against us.’”

#24 Satan has command of water so do not go swimming!

I have personal experience of this one having been warned about it as I approached my baptism.

On their return trip to Kirtland the Prophet and ten elders had travelled down the Missouri River in canoes. On the third day of the journey many dangers were experienced. Elder William W. Phelps, in daylight vision, saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the waters.

The Church does have a general policy prohibiting full-time missionaries from swimming. They claim officially that this is simply a safety precaution to prevent drowning or other water-related accidents as Mission rules are designed to keep missionaries safe by preventing them from participating in high-risk physical activities.

Is swimming a high risk activity?

However in D&C 61:13-19 The following revelation was then received:

13 And now, behold, for your good I gave unto you a commandment concerning these things; and I, the Lord, will reason with you as with men in days of old.

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

#25 Interracial Marriage is wrong.

Brigham Young teaches: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109)

But the argument is that was a long time ago, black people can now hold the priesthood (if they are male) and the church is not racist any more.

However:

In an address to seminary and institute teachers at Brigham Young University on June 27, 1958, President Kimball, then a member of the Council of the Twelve, said:

“‘ . . . [T]here is one thing that I must mention, and that is interracial marriages. When I said you must teach your young people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage.’”

But this was before President Kimball had his revelation from God welcoming our Afro-Caribbean brothers and sisters back in to the fold wasn’t it?

In the current, Church-authorized Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, Lesson 31, entitled “Choosing an Eternal Companion” (p. 127ff), it declares in black and white:

“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “Marriage and Divorce p. 144)

All Mormon priests are expected to abide by the words of a Prophet unless subsequent revelation over rides them. There has been no further prophet’s pronouncement on interracial marriage since that of President Kimball.

However it does massively focus on Polygamy, and there are better more current Mormon issues that can be focused upon, nevertheless well worth a watch.

This is a very quick post just to give a massive recommendation to an interview I just finished listening too.

This link http://mormonstories.org/324-326-grant-palmer-returns-to-discuss-sexual-allegations-against-joseph-smith-william-and-jane-law-and-his-resignation/ is for the recent Mormon Stories podcast with Grant Palmer who resigned from the LDS church knowing he would be excommunicated due to him writing the book pictured above His book an insiders view of Mormon Origins  one of the most to the point and clear books you will find on the realitys of Mormon History. Palmer wrote this as a member and church authorities were not happy at all about what he revealed.

In the interview with John Dehlin linked to above he reveals the story of William Law and Joseph Smiths dealings with him, this is probably the most hard hitting expose on Joseph Smith I have heard, I cannot recommend it enough. Palmer is inspiring as He has retained his faith in Christ while managing to not in anyway become a part of the evangelical “Anti-Mormon” crowd that so often are easily ignored by LDS Apologists and members, Palmer wants truth and states it without an axe to grind about the Mormon Church.

Feel free to discuss your thoughts on it here.

Ok so first question.

What do Mormons believe about God?

God is often referred to in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as our Heavenly Father because He is the Father of all human spirits and they are created in His image (see Genesis 1:27). It is an appropriate term for God who is kind and just, all wise and all powerful. God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost constitute the Godhead or Trinity for Mormons. Latter-day Saints believe God is embodied, though His body is perfect and glorified.

Interestingly no direct reference whatsoever to God once being a man,  which is a massive distinctive of Mormonism. What would Joseph Smith have said if he was writing this website…He would have said you have imagined and supposed God is God from all eternity but He was a man just like you and me…. The Mormon Church of today might believe this, but its not in a hurry to tell people.

On to the bible.

Do Mormons believe in the Bible?

Yes. The Church reveres the Bible as the word of God, a sacred volume of scripture. Latter-day Saints cherish its teachings and engage in a lifelong study of its divine wisdom. Moreover, during worship services the Bible is pondered and discussed. Additional books of scripture — including the Book of Mormon— strengthen and reinforce God’s teachings through additional witnesses and provide moving accounts of the personal experiences many individuals had with Jesus Christ. According to Church apostle M. Russell Ballard, “The Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor deemphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it.”

Interestingly no mention of the bible being translated correctly here, just they believe the bible, whoever wrote this should have consulted the articles of faith first.

Ok here is the best part.

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ’s teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).

Ok think about this, firstly nothing is used to support what is being said here apart from the bible. Think about all of the quotes from Mormon leaders over the years clearly stating the LDS position on this, not official you say what about Doctrine and Covenants 132:20 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Why didnt they quote this which clearly spells out that they believe those that live out the covenants become gods, why quote bible verses which have been taken in a totally different way by Christians for thousands of years……Simple……Spin. Wonder why right now they have done this….. (COUGH – ROMNEY).

The Mormon Church today teaches that we can become as God is, meaning we can have thw same exalted body He has, meaning we (and our wives/husbands) can carry on eternally married producing our own spirit children, Mormons please tell me I am wrong. Interestingly I asked a Mormon facebook friend about this and he removed my comment and reported me as being abusive, I simply asked if Mormons still believe we can become Gods, or has the wording just changed?

The reality is this is dishonesty at the highest level, if you read this on face value without a background knowledge of Mormonism you would conclude that they do not believe you can become gods. However Mormons reading between the lines will know that this partaking of the divine nature means becoming gods in Mormon terms.

Finally.

Do Latter-day Saints practice polygamy?

No. There are more than 14 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not one of them is a polygamist. The practice of polygamy is strictly prohibited in the Church. The general standard of marriage in the Church has always been monogamy, as indicated in the Book of Mormon (see Jacob 2:27). For periods in the Bible polygamy was practiced by the patriarchs Abraham and Jacob, as well as kings David and Solomon. It was again practiced by a minority of Latter-day Saints in the early years of the Church. Polygamy was officially discontinued in 1890 — 122 years ago. Those who practice polygamy today have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.

While this is a true statement that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not PRACTICE polygamy it is still doctrine.  Doctrine and Covenants 132 still is there, and this is the “revelation” initialy used to bring in Polygamy, meaning that it is still a part of their theology. Many LDS think it will be brought back one day, maybe in the afterlife or maybe if the laws of the land are relaxed about it. Either way the LDS church of today wants the world to know that they aint those crazy fundamentals.

This whole webpage shows to me that the Mormon church wants nothing more than to be accepted as normal and Christian, even if it is at the expense of honesty, my title for this page was more provocative than usual if that offends I am sorry however if you are LDS read this page and ask yourself if it honestly lays out what you believe.

The above is a video I have recently come across looking in some depth at the 10 most significant historical problems in the Mormon Church’s claim to be the one true Church in the world, well worth a watch.