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Recently Scott Gordon who is the President of FairMormon, one of the main Mormon Apologetics organizations was interviewed on a Christian Podcast called Issues Etc. You can find that particular episode here.
I am doing this post to invite Mormons who read this article to give that episode a listen, and let me know what you think. Gordon is asked a number of questions on the beliefs of Mormons, and many things he said particularly with regards to the LDS view on the nature and origin of God really surprised me. I will say from the start that I appreciate that Gordon does not speak officially for the LDS church so he is welcome to have his own view on these issues, however he does preside over what is probably the most well established and well known institution seeking to defend the truthfulness of the LDS Church, so you you would expect him to give some honest good answers, I feel that this is far from the case.
At around 21:00 Gordon says that he really does not know that the LDS Church teaches that God was once a man, the interviewer quotes this Joseph Smith in his King Follet sermon where he says this:
We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, ……
The interviewer asks what does Joseph Smith mean if not, God was once a man? Gordon says this:
“The answer is, we dont know, the reason we dont know is because he was killed shortly after that, since then much speculation has jumped up about that, you will get quotes from people that talk about similar kind of things.”…….”That gets into speculative theology because we really dont know.”
This is amazing to me, its almost history repeating itself if you remember a certain interview of past Mormon Prophet Gordon B Hinckley. Where in time magazine when asked about this same thing he said:
‘I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it,’”
It seems that to the outside world Mormons just back away from this, yet lets see what one of their own Official Church manuals: ‘Achieving a celestial marriage’ 1992, which I own a copy of says this at the top of page 4.
God was once a man who, by obedience, advanced to his present state of perfection; through obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God.
2nd Mormon Prophet Brigham Young said:
“The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, ‘knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings’ of mortality?” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, p. 34. Brackets in original).
And of course 5th Mormon Prophet Lorenzo Snow Said:
“As man is now, God once was; as God is now, man may be” (The Teach- ings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 2. Italics in original. See also The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles manual, 1979, p. 59)
This has been reinforced in this years LDS Teaching manual which this blog has been going through as well.
Feeling that he had received “a sacred communication” that he should guard carefully, Lorenzo Snow did not teach the doctrine publicly until he knew that the Prophet Joseph Smith had taught it.2 Once he knew the doctrine was public knowledge, he testified of it frequently.
In addition to making this truth a theme for many of his sermons, he adopted it as the theme for his life. His son LeRoi said, “This revealed truth impressed Lorenzo Snow more than perhaps all else; it sank so deeply into his soul that it became the inspiration of his life and gave him his broad vision of his own great future and the mighty mission and work of the Church.”3 It was his “constant light and guide” and “a bright, illuminating star before him all the time—in his heart, in his soul, and all through him.”4
So it is simply amazing to me that Gordon backtracks from this so much, it seems that sometimes what is said in house is very different to what some Mormons want to tell the outside world. These are not abstract comments from nobodies in the LDS Church that I have quoted. Rather they are held as “Prophets” who the LDS Church teaches are those that speak for God today. Please give the interview a listen for yourself.
Also Bill Mckeever of Mormonism Research Ministry has been on this podcast since sharing his thoughts on Gordons comments, you can find that here.
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries has also spent two episodes of his podcast on this, please check those out below, they go into a lot more depth than I have here and are really worth the time.
I just cannot understand how someone in the position Scott Gordon is in can simply say “I dont know” in light of the absolute wealth of information from the LDS Church on this issue. Many of the answers he gives in this interview are very light and do not seem to reflect what Mormon Authorities have said. I appreciate there will be many LDS people who will very much disagree with what Scott Gordon said on this interview and some will agree, which one are you?
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Some of you may remember a while ago we had Ned Scharisbrick from the FairMormon Podcast do an episode responding to some articles on this blog. This was a great chance to have some online communication with Ned. In the process of this he very kindly offered to have me go on his podcast and have some dialogue with him. Ned runs an episode called the 4th watch, looking out for challenges and criticisms of the Mormon faith.
For those who dont know Fair is the Foundation for Apologetics information and Research and is one of the main organizations defending Mormonism from a faithful LDS perspective.
Well this week that episode went online on the Fairblog Podcast. You can find the episode here, or listen on the audio file below.
Bobby on the Fairblog podcast.
I very much appreciated Ned having me on, and I think this was a good example of respectful dialogue. I will let the episode speak for itself rather than offering some commentary on it myself, but we discussed the issue of what does it mean to be saved.
One thing I would say is in the introduction to the episode text it says this:
Mr. Gilpen comes from the evangelical Calvinist tradition of Christianity and the term ‘anti’ may come across as disrespectful to those who are actually kind to members of the LDS Church. The term anti in this discussion is used to represent those who are against or openly opposed to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, much as the term “pro” could be used for those who agree with or openly promote the teachings of the LDS Church.
I appreciate the explanation of what Anti-Mormon means here but I am still sad to see this used, I think it would be much more helpful if those engaged in LDS Apologetics start to publically state the difference between those that are LDS Critics and Anti-Mormons. As many Mormons maybe even to this episode will switch off when they see this term. Anti-Mormons in the mind of many Mormons refers to people who are opposed to them as people and are to be avoided, this is by no means what I am, and I think Ned does appreciate this.
However again all of that said I very much appreciate Ned having me on and I look forward to any comments that may come.
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One of the best parts of having a website like this I am finding is not what goes on, on the site itself, but actually the contacts I make as a result of having this web presence. Every now and then someone gets in touch who is some way through their journey of going from being in Mormonism to knowing Christ, these contacts can come from all over the world.
In the last few months I have had email contact with Michael McAlpine from New Zealand. He has recently left the LDS faith despite many members if his close family including his wife still being active in the LDS Church. In the coming weeks and months some of his journey and thoughts are going to be appearing on here. Please see the first part below and feel free to leave any comments or thoughts.
I was enjoying a quiet evening in the garden. It was one of those more unusual spring evenings here in Dunedin. Up on the hill over-looking the ocean and the city, we often have anything from a breeze to a strong wind. This evening as I worked around the strawberries and my recently planted potatoes there was only a soft warm breeze complimented by filtered sunlight. Perhaps it was the rhythmical digging with my hand spade that focused my thoughts as I contemplated my Christian experience.
In 2011 the LDS church Sunday School cycle had rotated to the New Testament. I had looked forward to studying the New Testament and relished having the time to read and study in advance of the Sunday lessons.
As I dug, a thought came to me that fully described my enthusiasm for the study. I not only wanted to understand the New Testament, I wanted to meet Jesus in its pages. I wanted to know who Jesus was, what he did and to understand what these things should mean to me. A question immediately came to mind: How could I have spent my life in the LDS church, a church with a large cannon of scripture, even new revelations, and at the age of nearly 45 still see Jesus as a mystery to be discovered? I had been an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all my life and not really known Jesus.
The 2011 year was certainly momentous for me leading to freedom in September 2012 and new commitments in 2013. Studying is something that I have always enjoyed and even excelled at. At university, I could prepare for an exam and quote the page numbers from text books to reference exam questions. I could take a full semester paper and summarise it into four A4 size pages, double sided mind you. Each word or phrase on the page standing in place of so much more, ready to be unpacked to answer a question. I had more recently spent a couple of years studying French after work and on Sunday afternoons for relaxation. So, it was nothing for me to enthusiastically pursue a study of the readings for Sunday School.
I started by reading the given text but realised that it was often beyond my own ability to understand or to unpack the words I was reading. What was the gospel writer trying to tell me? What was the meaning of the story? What message was the first century Jew to understand and how would I know what it was? I realised, that the helps in the LDS scriptures and usual resources were lacking in completeness and other qualitative terms and I turned to the commentaries of John Calvin.
Calvin’s commentaries are remarkable and opened my mind to a new understanding and a new way of reading the Bible. I devoured the reading each week spending up to 10 hours in study prior to the lesson on a Sunday. My enthusiasm lead to disappointment, not only for me, but for the teacher. On my side, I learned that the Sunday School class, though called Gospel Doctrine, was not about an in depth study of the Gospel, but a more pedestrian stroll through selected readings, addressing the usual questions that solicited the expected answers. There was little to be learned and less to be received from the fellow class members, most of which had not read much if any of the material prior to class. The teacher was disappointed in that though she had prepared, she had not prepared as much as I had and only relied on the Institute manual or teacher manual.
During the year, I had come across the podcast of the St Andrew’s church in Peebles, Scotland. Frequently when visiting Sydney, Australia, I would attend the Thursday Evensong service at St Andrews Anglican Cathedral. In looking up podcasts for the Sydney church, I came across the Peebles church and started to listen to new sermons and those located in the archives delivered by Jim Wallace, the then minister. There was also one particular sermon delivered by David Torrance, the younger brother of Thomas F. Torrance and James B. Torrance. I had never heard messages delivered like those delivered by Jim Wallace or David Torrance.
I had my favourite sermons and the one preached by David Torrance was particularly important to me. I laid in bed one night listening to his sermon on Psalm 23. I laid very still listening to the sermon and coming to understand for myself so very clearly, that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and declares himself thus in John 10:11 and us to be the sheep. The Good Shepherd who lays his life down for the sheep. He is the Great Shepherd who conquers death (Hebrews 13:20). He is the Chief Shepherd who will come again (1 Peter 5:4). Jesus as Lord has taken all the care, and what he has won, he has won me and he has won you, will never be taken from him.
I was so taken with the David Torrance’s sermon that I listened to it over and over for many months. In my search for other resources featuring David, I discovered a series of interviews he completed with Grace Communion International. These series of interviews on the practical implications of Trinitarian theology informed my understanding of the Love that is God.
I listened and I read, I prayed too and wondered. I then met with one of the Chaplains at the university where I work. It was in our first or second meeting that Greg referred to me as a Christian. He helped me to explore my developing faith and I felt encouraged to have a look in from time to time at different churches in town.
During 2012 I looked in on a couple of the Anglican churches here, leaving the family at the LDS church after the main service and then traveling to a local church nearby. It was noticed that I would leave from time to time and feeling awkward about it left off from my visits to reduce the attention I had drawn from the LDS congregational leadership.
However, events were quickly overtaking me. I had come to understand from my reading and study of Romans, that in Jesus we have everything. We enjoy communion, or rather we share that communion that is shared by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, through Jesus, and in the Spirit. United in Jesus, reconciled and not only me, but all, and all creation. The Mormon temple ordinances became to me a bleak denial of Jesus.
In September 2012 I was away at a conference and missed church. The following weekend I went hunting for the first time and also missed church. However, late on the Sunday afternoon, the Elders’ Quorum President came to my house to see how I was. We talked nicely for some time and then he said he really wanted me to teach the Elders’ Quorum on Sundays. My polite redirections and hints went unnoticed and I felt I had no option but to speak up and say that I didn’t believe it. This was a response that caught him completely off guard, but at the same time, once I got started I couldn’t stop. I felt such freedom in my declarations that from that Sunday on, to today, I have been to the LDS church only once.
I attended the local Presbyterian church for some months by myself, and accompanied by one of my children from time to time, but in February 2013, I went to All Saints Anglican church in town, near where I work. By the time communion came, I felt I had an undeniable obligation to heed the God who had been calling me for some time. I stood up from my seat, walked to the alter and knelt, as an outsider, but also as someone who now claimed Jesus wholeheartedly. When Father Michael came to offer me the communion wafer, I declined, as I did not consider I was a baptised Christian and instead received blessing.
I started studying with Father Michael, preparing for baptism. It seemed it was always meant to be as it was discovered that Father Michael had a picture of me on his fridge. I had been to the Cathedral for the ordination of a new Priest. Father Michael’s son had participated in the service and I appeared in a picture that had been taken of his son. We found a light moment considering this coincidence.
While my decision has posed significant challenges to my family relationships, I find it hard to consider any alternative course of action. God had been calling me as I searched, he had come to me, he is the Good Shepherd who searches for and does everything for me and to whom all I can say or do in response, is to say thank-you.
More to come from Michael, as I was sorting this post out I was listening to the song below, I think catches a lot of the heart of what has been going on in Michael and so many others please give it a listen and just open your heart to God, as this was for you as well, if you will just trust Him.
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“Cultivate a spirit of charity; be ready to do for others more than you would expect from them if circumstances were reversed.”
Obviously doing good to others is a good and Godly principle. LDS, like main stream Christians seek to follow this biblical principle of Charity and service, loving your neighbour, treating others as you would expect to be treated yourselves. This chapter begins with a story of Lorenzo and his family’s exodus from Norvoo, they helped a man who needed a ride on their wagon and in turn the man (who happened to work in repairing wagons,) repaired the wagon for the family when they were in desperate need. Lorenzo commented that this situation reinforced in him the principle that one favour often leads to another.
the next heading states…
“We are Children of the same Heavenly Father, and we have been sent into the world to do Good.”
Lorenzo speaks here of the LDS belief that everyone on earth is literally brothers and sisters as they were conceived and born in heaven as spirit children of God the Father and his wife. Therefore with this in mind he advocates LDS to treat their kin well, treating them as they would a brother or a sister.
As part of this doing good to others, Lorenzo also calls LDS to share their learning, saying that by “communicating his information while engaging in learning it,” a person can learn all the more. Pursuing education is strongly encouraged within the LDS church.
Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith.” -Doctrine and Covenants 109:7
Lorenzo goes on to discuss how we should seek the good of our friends, and sacrificing for the sake of others.
“We see this in the Savior, and in brother Joseph, and we see it in our President ( Brigham Young ). Jesus, brother Joseph and brother Brigham have always been willing to sacrifice all they possess for the good of the people.”
I have to say that I am offended here on behalf of our Savior that Lorenzo would even think to compare anyone to Him. By all means advocate living a sacrificial life, and yes perhaps Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did this to some extent, but I think Jesus is in a league of His own.
I think to some extent Lorenzo puts across the idea that, one favour leads to another in return, to help others does you good, in teaching others you will learn more, by sharing knowledge your, “mind will expand, and that light and knowledge which he (you) had gained would increase and multiply” Sure I agree that their are “treasures in heaven,” like in the story of the servants who are given talents to use wisely, (Matthew 25:14-30), those who do use them wisely will receive a reward. But then we also have the story of the good Samaritan, what was his reward?
To know he had done the will of the Father, and perhaps more in the next life. Did he receive a reward in this life we’ll never know, but I believe he did this good service to his fellow man purely out of a love for and obedience to God.
Quite a short post for me, I think we’re largely in agreement that we should do good to others, as the Bible instructs.
As always I’m happy to receive your feedback
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Hey there all. As many who have been reading this blog for a while will know, I have been to Utah on mission trips for 3 years running between 2010 and 2012. These have been seriously some of the best times of my life. I have been on a daily basis actively involved in reaching out to LDS people as well as meeting, training and connecting with various Christians from Utah and other parts of the USA. My main contact is Russ East from Utah Partnerships for Christ.
Russ runs a ministry hosting mission trips from all over America and the world seeking to reach out to the residents of Utah. On every visit I have stayed and worked with Russ, being involved with outreach at Temple Square in Salt Lake City and also the Manti Miracle Pageant, where each night 14,000 Mormons come and watch a re-enactment of their theology and believed history, here is a discussion I had there.
As well as reaching out to Mormons on my last trip I was also involved with training and equipping Christians. Here I am giving some guys a tour of temple square.
During these visits I have also been on Heart of the Matter with Shawn Mccraney twice, here is one of my appearances at the end of this video.
So what is my point in all this? Well I want to go back to Utah, every year from 2014 onwards. In fact my wife Vicky and I are in genuine hope and prayer that one day in the next 5 years or so we want to move to and live in Utah. However these trips are expensive and so this post is an unashamed request, that you would consider supporting me to go to Utah on a mission trip in 2014.
For this trip I plan to:
- Be very active in outreach to LDS people in Utah, particularly at the Manti Miracle Pageant.
- Make contact with local Christian Churches in Utah, seeking to build relationships and raise support for a permanent Utah move.
- Build relationships with Key Christians in Utah already active in evangelism to LDS people.
- Report back to you on what is going on and keeping you up to date in all that you are supporting me to do over there.
This is your chance to have an active impact on LDS people not only in the UK but around the world. Please prayerfully consider supporting me for this trip. Anything you contribute however big or small with be massively significant in helping me to make this trip. I estimate I need to raise around £1000 to go for around two weeks. You can contribute by emailing me on [email protected] for info, You can also give via paypal by clicking here. Or by clicking the paypal button below.
Thank you for reading, more updates on this to follow.
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Hi there all as some of you know I recently had a great time having Russ East over from Utah Partnerships for Christ staying in the UK for a few days. While he was here he went on the Radio show Unbelievable? On premier Christian Radio with Justin Brierly.
Recently Hans Mattsson who was in the Europe area presidency for the LDS Church had a crisis of faith, this was so significant it made the New York Times, you can see the article here.
Russ has dialogue on this show with Brian Hales, an LDS scholar who has recently wrote a number of books from a faithful Pro LDS perspective about Joseph Smiths Polygamy. Russ and Brian have dialogue on this show about whether Mattsson’s crisis of faith was a natural response to the information he learned about Joseph Smith, this is really worth a listen.
You can listen from the Unbelievable site here or directly on our page below.
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Recently there has been a really excellent book release called Unveiling Grace by Lynn Wilder. Lynn was an LDS member and during some of that time a BYU professor. In many years of reading many books of this kind this is easily one of the best. There is an excellent insight into Utah Mormon life, and the transition and struggles that many go through in leaving Mormonism and coming to Christ. This book is really worth a read. Also below is Lynn and her husband Michael sharing their story.
The book can be bought at Amazon UK and Amazon US as well as in many other bookstores.
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We had a great time last night teaching on Mormonism from a Christian perspective and having Russ East here in Middlesbrough, UK from Utah sharing his story. Thanks to all that came and for those that did not, please check out the podcast here. Or the recording below.
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Hi there all this is just a quick update to let you know that we have Russ East currently staying in the UK for a few days. Russ runs our parent ministry Utah Partnerships for Christ. Today I recorded an interview with Russ that has gone onto our ministry podcast talking about what he does in Utah and why, you can find that here. Or just listen to it on this page below.
Also if you are in the Middlesbrough area tomorrow night on the 4th November. We are having an event at Melbourne House on Newport Road at 7:30pm where Russ will be sharing his story of leaving Mormonism and coming to Christ. If you would like more information please contact me, my details are on the left of this article. There is also a facebook event for this here.
thanks a lot
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Firstly from an Evangelical Perspective, Shawn Mccraney.
Secondly from a more secular perspective, but certainly I found the observations fascinating was John Larsen at Mormon Expression, you can find that episode here.
What did you think of the talk?
thanks a lot
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