This is well worth a watch. Lucy in this excellent video goes through many of the key theological issues that come up in dialogue with Mormons. Please share this around, also here is the full transcript.
CTR JESUS: A Poem
Call me an investigator
Not a hater
Someone just speaking the truth
So if you’re a Latter Day Saint keeping the faith I’d love to talk to you
I know this conversation might get heated like a fireside
But my purpose ain’t to grill a Stake but to ignite a light
Just like the wristband you’re wearing I agree it’s important we choose the right
In order to get far on the CTR we need to go back to the ABC and ask the basic question of whether you really follow the same Jesus as me?
Because if we don’t see the magnitude of His true worth
Then you’re not really following Jesus at all
The truth might hurt but you need to get a bigger God because yours is too small
See when I dive into scripture and get truly immersed
I find the Jesus who created the entire universe!
You’ll see what I mean when I open up Colossians 1:16
Out of nothing He created all things for Himself
Didn’t need us or anyone’s help
To carve the mountains of Utah or to paint the Northern Lights
To sprinkle the sand of Californian beaches and deserts of Arabian nights
He’s the ultimate Guardian of every galaxy
He’s the Lord of the Rings over the things that exist invisibly
Spinning the hoops of Saturn
Every planet is His cosmic Basketball
One King One God One Mediator to rule them all
Jesus has always been there so don’t get it twisted
He was around before the clock started, before time existed
Yes his timeless hands reached down into the hands of time
Without boasting about his shared equality with the divine
He could scoop up the oceans yet He chose to walk with Peter on the waves
He could have demanded privilege but instead He washed John’s feet like a slave
He could have entered the great city upon a regal steed
But instead He rode in on a donkey humble and meek
He could have showed off His power with violent force but instead He took out His enemies by absorbing death’s cause
Spitting sin out like the poison of a snakebite wound
His foot crushed the serpent’s head that tried to inflict doom
Cheating death’s sting when He walked out that tomb
Many Mormons have told me that Jesus is our brother who wants to adopt us into God’s family
I would agree that He is our brother but only to the extent that He can relate to our humanity
But to say He is on the same level as Lucifer is blasphemy
Jesus has never been Lucifer’s brother like you falsely teach
The prince of darkness has nothing to do with the Prince of Peace.
I know it’s gonna take a lot to believe me
But angels, humans and Jesus are different species
Hebrews chapter 1 demonstrates this distinction
That angels are messengers of fire
But when it comes to Jesus that’s not what the writer is thinking
It’s clear Jesus’ role is much much higher
There’s references here that are taken from Psalms 102 + 45
That shows Jesus commands more than just days and nights
He rules a Kingdom that lasts forever – the Kingdom of Light
If He can eternally reign then that means He was never created in the first place
He’s the the one who carved angel’s wings and breathed life into the human race
He wrote the language of life, drawing U + I into the alphabet
He sees the beginning and end
That’s why I call Him my A-Z
Jesus is the firstborn over all creation
That doesn’t mean there was a start to Him being the Son
It means He’s superior, pre-eminent. He’s number one.
The word prototokos is the original greek
It means Jesus’ role is at the forefront, eternally unique.
He ain’t a little cub tame and born at the beginning of Spring
He roars with authority as he’s at the top of the food chain
Call Him the Lion King!
See we were always meant to live trusting in God alone but then one day we thought we could do a better job and built our own thrones.
We wanted to become gods ourselves and be at the very centre
If life was a map we went on a detour and said no to God’s adventure
The biggest lie the devil whispered is that all we need to do is trust ourselves, we’re better off without Him
Let’s build our own kingdoms and be King of our mountains
For we think we’re gods
Sons of the most high
Yet just like every other ruler
We’re destined to die
The consequences of our selfishness bring death and separation
Until the creator bridged the gap by entering His creation
Contrary to what is taught in the world of LDS
Jesus didn’t enter our world in order to progress
But to redeem humanity from its sinful mess
To bring wholeness and life to a land that only knew death
The atonement is the centre of Jesus’ mission and here’s the true definition:
On the cross it was our sins He bore that’s what we find in 1 Peter 2:24
Jesus didn’t die so we could have an end time resurrection
On the cross He took on our rejection and exchanged it for His perfection
All because of His one sacrifice
You are made holy, blameless in His sight
Hebrews 10:14 says you can stand worthy to have eternal life
Matthew records the temple veil being ripped from top to bottom in chapter 27 verse 51
Which means you can have full access to the Father, Spirit + Son
Your leaders have forgotten that Jesus’ sacrifice is enough
Why in the temple have you put the veil back up?
God’s presence is yours to embrace. Experience unveiling grace.
It’s like He’s gone outside, taken our dirty laundry off the line
And put on our filthy rags
Clothed us in clean robes
So we can stand inside the house spotless before our dad!
It’s like we need to get back to our home country and Jesus has paid the fare
He got arrested at customs so we could have nothing to declare
No baggage to claim because it’s no longer there
you’re on new soil, new land because of the sacrifice of this one man.
You don’t need that flimsy green card ever again
Why? Because Jesus is your temple recommend.
Hebrews 7: Jesus has made the permanent payment as your permanent high priest
You don’t need to pay a tithe in order to eat at the feast!
Nor do you need to argue about who has the priesthood blessing
Because Jesus’ worthiness is the only one you need to rest in!
If I put the Jesus I know next to Brad Wilcox’s idea of grace it doesn’t match
How can grace be grace if the free piano has strings attached?
Where if you don’t play perfectly you don’t appreciate your mum and dad?
Real, Scandalous, Amazing Grace doesn’t record your mistakes but takes delight in the fact you’re playing in the first place
The loving father takes a step further He books you to perform at the Royal Albert Hall Show
And no matter what you play
He hears Jesus hit the grace note!
Grace is never about relying on your own musical ability
Grace is letting the Composer sing through you His melody!
You have the freedom to pray directly to the Saviour like Stephen did in Acts 7:59
It’s not about being perfect
It’s letting Him say “you’re mine”
Don’t put your trust in feelings because they change like the wind
Ask yourself do you trust an organization or do you trust in Him?
1 John 5:13 is the last thing I’ll write to remind you that you can know for certain that you have eternal life
I pray that after you read this that you would choose to put your ultimate trust in the right Jesus.
So do you think Mormons can know and experience Jesus as Mormons?
Absolutely. Take a look at this story of a former Mormon missionary who encountered Jesus:
Thanks Lucy . That was a different way of presenting truthful information .
Markie,
The question you ask is a important one . While I believe that non LDS should be careful to not judge the hearts of some Mormons ,especially those that are newly baptized etc , still there is good reason to believe that Mormon leaders for example , do not, as you asked ” know and experience Jesus ” .
To “know ” God and His Son Jesus means to have a personal, saving , relationship with them —
see Jn 17:3 . So if the men who lead the Mormon church and who are the doctrinal authorities for LDS know Jesus as Jn 17:3 states , then there would no need for ministries like this one nor would there any need to remind people that Jesus warned about latter days false prophets .
The Bible is clear that counterfeit prophets will come in the latter days — Matt 24:11 so we must test Mormon prophets lest we be fooled into following prophets not sent by Jesus .
What have Mormon leaders taught about God / Jesus ? Is there a difference in what they have taught compared to what God’s true prophets/apostles in the Bible taught? The apostle Paul was concerned about sincere people being misled into error by false prophets , those religious leaders who introduce false teachings about Jesus ( 2 Cor 11:4 ) and about the gospel of salvation ( Gal 1:8 ) . So testing all prophets today is vital to evaluate their claims — 1 Jn 4:1 .
Simply put :only the true Savior ,Jesus Christ , has the ability and authority to forgive sinners and give them eternal life , imitations can’t . and false prophets are those who teach imitation Saviors or gospels .
Are you aware of what Mormon leaders have taught about God or Jesus and compared them with what the Bible ( and even the Book of Mormon ) teaches ?
The Bible reveals that our Creator was always God . Mormon leaders have taught otherwise.
The Bible reveals that Jesus is truly the eternal Jehovah .But Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus was the result of a male God and one of His wives in heaven producing him and then calling him Jehovah after he had progressed and learned enough to earn that name .
These are just two quick example of why Mormon prophets are those of whom Jesus alerted us to beware of in these latter days . So to follow such prophets is not wise , and indeed is spiritually dangerous according to scripture per Jesus — again Matt 24:11 .
So while I can’t say that everyone who sits in a Mormon ward each Sunday morning does not know Jesus , I can say with no hesitation that Mormon leaders are false prophets who have succumbed to believing egregious teachings about God and Jesus , and then teach such .That means those who submit to them as religious authorities in their life are in a spiritually dangerous situation .
That fact breaks my heart for these precious people .
Take care .
Ok let me rephrase my question-do you think Mormons who are still in the church know God-know forgiveness-know Jesus?
Sorry Lucy new to this…missed your reply…so you don’t rule out the idea that everyday Mormons can know Jesus…and forgiveness…and answers to prayer…
The leaders were once everyday members…so maybe you wouldn’t rule out them also having the same -at least at that stage of their journey?
Micah’s story is beautiful and inspiring.However, what concerns me listening to this and the Wilders own story is they didn’t seem to have any relationship with God whilst Mormons…no concept of forgiveness of sins…for them these things can only happen outside of Mormonism.
There are many Mormons who wouldn’t relate to this!
That being said the grace of Jesus is far bigger than the Mormon church or any other ministry
Markie, Lucy will answer your question to her , but for me I have to first ask did you even read what I posted ? Maybe I did’nt articulate well enough but when I said that there are “some ” LDS that I believe are saved , I believe that . However this number is rather small and are among the rank and file members that’s why I can’t categorically dismiss literally every person who says they are a LDS as being lost . That’s about as clear as I can be about this point .
Now it needs mentioning that all those who join the Mormon church are under obligation to go on and find out what their leaders have taught about important issues [ Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation , vol 1 p. 302 ; also Church curriculum — When Thou Art Converted Strengthen Thy Brethren , 1974-75 Melchizedek Priesthood course of study p x ] .
So ultimately ignorance is no excuse on the part of any LDS if their leaders are found to be false prophets etc .
I hope you will take seriously Jesus warning about latter days false prophets . Yes Jesus has a lot of grace , but He still warned everyone of the very real danger that counterfeit prophets pose for a reason .Please ponder that fact . Thanks .
Yes I did – aside from the fact it is the Lord who judges and not you or me on someones salvation – the point I am making is that within Mormonism there are many Mormons who have a relationship with the Lord – have forgiveness of sins – and know Jesus and all these are taught within the church -something many anti-Mormon sites and bloggers are not aware of…as they zero in on the doctrines!
Nowhere in the New Testament are we saved by a doctrine – we are saved by Jesus – even in the Christian world there are many doctrines -these wont save or damn you either [in the eternal sense although they will affect your spiritual journey]
markie,
Are you saying that this ministry is an “anti” Mormon ministry ? I hope not . Please remember that I am only a guest here on this blog but I see nothing “anti Mormon in the attitude of those who run this ministry . Now let’s look at some of you have said in your last comments :
You said that you feel there are many Mormons who have received forgiveness of their sins and have a right relationship with Jesus . Speaking of forgiveness of sins , do you realize that according to Mormon doctrine that non Mormons ( like me ) unless I am baptized by an authorized Mormon priesthood holder I have no remission of sins . Do you know what that means for me ? ( answer : no salvation / eternal life ) . So while you may believe that there are many Mormons who have received forgiveness of their sins and have salvation , Mormon leaders don’t teach that same thing about non Mormons like myself and others here !
You said it’s wrong for people to ” zero in on doctrines ” ? and ” Nowhere in the New Testament are we saved by a doctrine — we are saved by Jesus …”
You’re right , we are saved by Jesus . However it is logical that only the true Jesus has the ability to save sinners . That is why Paul warned his flock about being fooled into believing
” another Jesus ” or ” another gospel ” see 2Cor 11:4 and Gal 1:8 . False prophets did this then and latter days false prophets do it nowadays . Simple fact .
You need to be reminded that Mormon leaders have said the following :
– Christianity died off soon after the deaths of Jesus’ apostles , the gospel of salvation was altered and thus salvation was not available to man for 1700 years until Joseph Smith arrived on the scene . Therefore only Mormon leaders preach the true gospel — no salvation unless you confess Joseph Smith and join the Mormon church .
– only two churches today : 1. The Mormon church . 2. all other churches constitute part of what is the church of the Devil . ( ponder that !)
– others who claim to follow Jesus are actually worshiping “fake Christs ” and therefore no salvation !!! [ Ensign May 1977 , sermon by Elder Bernard Brockbank ]
– Listen to Mormon apostle Bruce mcConkie answer your question about the importance of correct doctrine :
” There is no such thing as gaining salvation from a false god , or by conforming to a false plan of salvation , or through membership in a false church .” [ Ensign Nov 1984 ] .
– Mormon church curriculum has stated that some false teachings are so egregious , that those who believe them are not in a right relationship with God and in fact will miss out on salvation unless they repent . One such belief is that God the Father is only a Spirit not an exalted man .[ see for example The Melchizedek Priesthood Course of Study — 1968-1969 p. 75-76 ; also Ensign Nov 1980 , sermon by Apostle Bruce McConkie ” The Lord God of The restoration” ] .
markie , as you can see , even according to Mormonism doctrine is vital .And remember that even Mormon leaders admit that living a moral lifestyle is not enough to gain salvation . So a choice must be made : either Mormonism is the truth or it is’nt . Either Mormon leaders can be trusted to teach the correct view of God and Jesus or they are well meaning false prophets . I and others here believe the Mormon church is a false prophet led organization . Therefore it’s members are in spiritual danger unless they dismiss Mormon leaders as authorities in their lives . LDS don’t need them.
Don’t confuse being ” nice ” ( Mormons are nice ) with being right .
MormonISM is not the answer . People deserve to hear that news .
Take care .
Thanks for reply. Clearly this and other sites are anti-Mormon. They are stating the leaders are false prophets-that the church is false and ultimately that Mormons are lost. That is the bold fact although as you say you are motivated by a concern for their precious souls. Clearly committed Mormons would have a similar motivation for their gospel.
Not sure why you respond to my point about Mormons actually knowing God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit with an attack on their doctrines?
So what about my main point that Mormons are taught to have relationship with the Lord and for them it would make no sense to come to Jesus because they already know him?
A lot of the stories of ex Mormons seem to suggest they somehow come to know Jesus when they leave Mormonism and that they had no concept of knowing God or forgiveness.
Many Mormons wouldn’t relate to this.
Markie, I’m sorry that you feel this ministry is “anti Mormon ” . I’m thinking you may have a bad experience with some ministry or some Christian and therefore you lump every one together who has a desire to share the true gospel with Mormons as ” anti Mormons” . Clearly that is a faulty assumption on your part . Not sure why you seem to be portraying Mormon leadership as the good guys and people like me and this ministry as the bad guys . If stating that Mormon leaders are false prophets , the Mormon church is a not exclusively Jesus’ true church , and Mormons are lost if they believe what their leaders have taught ( about God and Jesus etc ) makes us “anti Mormon” then what does that make Mormon leaders when they say these same things about us or other non Mormons ? Are’nt they ” anti Evangelicals ” ? To be consistent the answer would be “yes” .
You said , ” Not sure why you respond to my point about Mormons actually knowing God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost with an attack on their doctrines?”
The Bible teaches that just because someone says they know God or Jesus but have erroneous beliefs about them then that person is self deceived . I keep mentioning Paul’s warning in Gal 1:8 but you seem to ignore that pertinent scripture . Also this is not my opinion only because even Joseph Smith taught that in order to receive salvation a person must a correct view of God [ 1835 Lectures on Faith , see lecture three ].
The danger false prophets pose is that they introduce teachings about God and Jesus that are lies ,and to believe those false teachings is spiritually dangerous . Apparently you don’t seem to understand that fact . Why do think Jesus pre warned us all about latter days false prophets ?
You also don’t seem to understand that since someone says they know God/Jesus and have a relationship with Them that therefore the definition of those terms , i.e. ” God” , “Jesus” “relationship” etc is in line with what the Bible teaches about them . It just could be that therein lies the problem with your argument . My wife is a former Jw . As a Jw she would have told you she knew God and followed Jesus. Also that living a righteous life (in order to gain God’s approval and hope of salvation) was crucial to her . Yet her leaders taught that “Jesus ” was none other than Michael the archangel , and a “relationship ” with Him was to follow His example in living a moral lifestyle and to faithfully proclaim God’s name . She would have even used Jn 17: 3 to prove this to you . She was sincere about her faith , but she was misled into joining a false prophet led organization — just like those who join the Mormon church , and ended up believing she was following the true Jesus . See Matt 24;24 ( “false Christs’)
You said , ” A lot of the stories of ex Mormons seem to suggest they somehow come to know Jesus when they leave Mormonism and they had no concept of knowing God or forgiveness .”
I’m sure they’ll be glad to explain that to you . I was never a Mormon .
Why don’t you move the spotlight from rank and file LDS over to Mormon leaders and see what they have taught about Jesus ever since they arrived on the scene in 1830 ? Do Mormon leaders really know God ? Do they actually hear from Jesus , who they claim personally supervises their preaching and church mission ? Have they been reliable as guides in teaching LDS the truths of scripture ? What does the record show ? If you will not take up that kind of investigation then there really is not much more I can say to you about if rank and file LDS are in any danger or not .
If you are a Mormon then please remember that Jesus was thinking of you when He warned about the coming of counterfeit prophets in the latter days . He does not want you or anyone to be misled into following an imitation Christ or gospel . Good feelings do not necessarily translate into being right , especially about spiritual truths . So test any prophet — 1Jn 4:1
I’ll be praying for your eyes of understanding to be open .
God bless you .
Mike
you are clearly anti the Mormon church and Mormons would see it that way.
It’s clear from your wordy responses that you think Mormons can’t know God, Jesus or forgiveness…and try to draw some neat line between rank and file members and those in leadership.
Unfortunately they do have the above as much as you and others find that hard to fit into your worldview…
if you are dealing in truth then you need to understand the above otherwise it’s the truth according to mike and his interpretation of Gods word
Ok Markie , I’ll give this one more try because I love you and wish for you to see the truth about issue .
You said , ” You are clearly anti the Mormon church and Mormons would see it that way.”
I’m glad you said ‘anti Mormon church ” instead of “anti Mormons ” because that is more accurate of my view . I love the Mormon people ,but I reject the Mormon church or more precisely ” MormonISM ” . See the difference ?
What’s interesting is that Mormon leaders have done ( said ) some of the same things about Christians like me and my beliefs that you , if you were not so bias , would have to admit make them also “anti’s ” . So may you quick using that term , ok ?
You said , ” It’s clear from your wordy responses that you think Mormons can’t know God , Jesus , or forgiveness ….”
I’ve already said that I will not claim that literally every person who says they are a Mormon does not a saving relationship with God . But I will say that Mormon leaders do not know God nor have they heard from the true Jesus in directing their teachings and church mission . You may be unaware of what Mormon leaders have taught about God , Jesus , and how a person can be saved , but I assure you it is not in line with what God’s true prophets/ apostles taught .
Therefore they are false prophets with a counterfeit gospel . Because Mormons use terms or phrases like ” I’m serving Jesus ” or ” I’m following Jesus ” , or ” Jesus is my Savior , that therefore they must know personally the true Jesus Christ and be completely forgiven individuals . Sorry , but that simply may not be the case at all because they’ve been misled in what those terms mean by their leaders indoctrination . Only when we look at what scripture says about all this will we see the difference appear .
Remember , my wife faithfully followed a religious organization ( Jw’s )that made the same type of claims of exclusive authority as Mormon church leaders have made . If you would have talked with her when she was still a member of that “church” she would have told you she ” follows Jesus ” , she “serves Jesus ” because He is her “Savior “. Yet it turns out that her Savior is none other than Michael the archangel in heaven with the Father Jehovah . Her Jesus was not the true one and those terms and phrases she used to tell you about Him would have led you to believe that she had a ” relationship” with Him and salvation . But she was misled .Eventually she put down her prophets writings and looked into only the Bible for herself and eventually found the true authentic Jesus Christ . Likewise most LDS are in much of the same type situation as she started out in .That is a fact , and it saddens my heart . But I have hope they will be free one day also .
Now concerning those LDS who may be not as indoctrinated as most are , and therefore could be forgiven and know Jesus , there is a good indicator that determines if their are :
Since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth ( Jn 14;17 )who can guide true believers out of error and into complete freedom from false prophets influence over them ( Jn 16:13 ) then sooner or later those Mormons will see they’ve detoured by false prophets , dismiss them , and leave the Mormon church . True believers will realize that they let feelings fool them and they will thereafter not have a “testimony” affirming Mormon leaders exclusive authority because those men are not who they claim to be .So if there are truly saved persons in the Mormon church sooner or later they will walk into the light of truth and walk out of the Mormon church and away from the prophets who rule over them . They will turn to the Bible alone and the true Jesus revealed there . Lucy did a good job at sharing who this Jesus is .
Praying for you Markie .
Take care
Mormons have never been the problem , Mormonism is .
Mormonism is not the answer .
I agree Jesus is the answer.
My main point is that a relationship with God as Father, knowing Jesus as Saviour, being led by the Holy Spirit – having forgiveness of sins are all taught by the leaders of Mormonism. There are many still in Mormonism and who chose to stay there who have the above.
My difficulty with ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons is they claim that leaving the church leads to the above.
If we are dealing in truth then we cant be selective or neat about it!
I think we need to respectfully disagree and may the Lord bless you in your walk with him.