Comments on: Weak Arguments #7: “The Book of Mormon doesn’t have a trace of orthodox, mainstream Biblical Christianity in it.” By Fred. W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/ Tue, 17 Nov 2015 02:40:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25207 Fri, 09 Jan 2015 21:57:49 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25207 BTW, for anyone who’s interested, this book is considered the definitive work in regard to listing the various and sundry Mormon Denominations. Since it was published in 1990 a few more have sprung up but it’s still the best despite it’s age:
http://smile.amazon.com/Divergent-Paths-Restoration-Steven-Shields/dp/0942284135

And here’s a partial listing for those denominations for those who are interested:

MORMON SPLINTER GROUPS
(Sects that broke away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)

FOUNDED BETWEEN 1830 AND 1844
* Pure Church of Christ, Wycam Clark, 1831
* The Independent Church, Hoton, 1832
* Church of Christ, Ezra Booth, 1836
* Church of Christ, Warren Parrish, 1837
* The Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, The Lamb’s Wife, George M. Hinkle, 1840
* Church of Christ, Hyrum Page, 1842
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, F. Gladden Bishop
* True Church of Jessu Christ of Latter Day Saints, Law, Foster, Higbee, 1844
* Church of Christ, William Chubby

NON-EXTANT MOVEMENTS FOUNDED 1844-1860
* Church of Christ / Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion, Sidney Rigdon, 1844
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James Emmett, 1844
* Church of Christ, S. B. Stoddard, Leonard Rich, James Bump, 1845
* Indian Mormon, 1846
* Church of Christ, William McLellin, David Whitmer, 1847
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, William Smith, 1847
* Congregation of Jehovah’s Presbytery of Zion, Charles B. Thompson, 1848
* Church of Christ, James C. Brewster, 1848
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Lyman Wight, 1849
* The Bride, The Lamb’s Wife or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jacob Syfritt, 1850
* Church of Christ, Hazen Aldrich, 1851

EXTANT MOVEMENTS
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James J. Strang, 1844
* Church of Christ, Aaron Smith, 1846
* Church of the Messiah, George J. Adams, 1861
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
* Holy Church of Jesus Christ, Alexandre R. Caffiaux
* House of Ephraim and House of Manasseh of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jerry Sheppard
* The True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, David L. Roberts
* Marriage Counseling Group
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John J. Hajicek
* Strangite Believers in Pennsylvania

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young, 1847
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Church of the First Born, Joseph Morris, 1861
* The Prophet Cainan or Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God, George Williams, 1862
* Morrisite Group, John Livingston, 1864
* Church of Zion, William S. Godbe, 1868
* Church of the First Born, George S. Dove, 1874
* Priesthood Groups (Fundamentalists), 1890
* United Order of Equality, Ephraim Peterson, 1909
* The Church of Jesus Christ of Israel, J. H. Sherwood
* Order of Aaron, Maurice L. Glendenning
* Church of Freedom of Latter Day Saints, 1950s
* Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Marl V. Kilgore, 1951
* The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Joel F. LeBaron
* The Church of the Firstborn, Ross W. LeBaron, 1955
* Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter Day Saints, William C. Conway, 1958
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John Forsgren, 1960
* Church of Jesus Christ, William Goldman, 1960
* LDS Scripture Researchers/Believe God Society, Sherman Russell Lloyd, 1965
* The Church of the Body and of the Spirit of Jessu Christ, Max Powers, 1965
* United Order of the Saints of Guadeloupe, Michel Gamiette, 1966
* United Order of the Family of Christ, David E. Desmond, 1966
* Split from Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Eldon Taylor, 1969
* Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ, Denver, Colorado, 1972
* Latter Day Saints Church, N.S. Park, 1972
* The Church of the Lamb of God, Ervil M. LeBaron, 1972
* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mikhail Krupenia, 1972
* The New Jerusalem Group, Kathryn Carter, 1972
* The Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel, Miltenberg, Braun, 1973
* Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, Alexnader Joseph, 1974
* Evangelical Church of Christ, Church of the New Covenant in Christ, John W. Bryant, 1974
* Split form Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Barton Kilgore, 1975
* Affirmation, 1975
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Robert Simons, 1975
* Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Bruce Wakeham, 1975
* Aaronic Order Break-off, 1977
* Christ’s Church, Inc., Gerald Peterson, 1978
* Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla, 1978
* The Restorers or School of the Prophets, Robert C. Crossfield, 1979
* Zion’s First International Church, LeeAnn Walker, 1980
* The Free Will Mormon Church, Franklin Lee Coleman, 1980
* Church of Jesus Christ, Jorge Mora, 1981
* Sons Ahman Israel, Davied Israel, 1981
* Samoan LDS Church, New Zealand, 1981
* The Millennial Church of Jesus Christ, Leo P. Evoniuk, 1981
* Peyote Way Church of God, Immanuel P. Trujillo, 1981
* The Chruch of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion, Ken Asay, 1984
* Break from the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, 1984
* Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints or Restoration Church of Jesus Christ, Antonio A. Feliz, 1985
* Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints, Robert P. Madison, 1985
* Church of Christ the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Siegfried J. Widmar, 1985
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Fundamentalists, Wight Family, 1985
* Mormon Fundamentalists, England, Alan and Marian Munn, 1986
* Church of Jesus Christ Omnipotent, 1987
* Community of Zion, Central Utah Division
* Church of the First Born, General Assembly

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, Alpheus Cutler, 1853
* Church of Jesus Christ, Clyde Fletcher, 1953
* The Restored Church of Jesus Christ, Eugene O. Walton, 1979

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 1851-1860
* Church of the Christian Brotherhood, Richard C. Evans, 1917
* The Church of Christ, the Order of Zion, John Zahnd, 1918
* The Church of Jesus Christ, Thomas W. Williams, 1925
* Church of Jesus Christ Restored, Stanley M. King, 1970
* New Jerusalem Church of Jesus Christ, Barney Fuller, 1975
* Church of Christ Restored, Paul Fishel, 1976
* True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Forrest Toney, 1980
* Church of the Restoration or Churches of Christ in Zion, Robert Chambers, 1981
* Lamanite Ministries for Christ or New Covenant Ministries for Christ, 1984
* Restoration Branches Movement, 1984
* Church of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, A. Lee Abramson, 1985
* Church of Jesus Christ, Zion’s Branch, John Cato, 1986
* Church of Christ, David Clark, 1986
* Independent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Christopher C. Warren, 1986
* Native Indian Church

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, William Bickerton, 1862
* Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Allen Wright, 1907
* Primitive Church of Jesus Christ, James Caldwell, 1914

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Granville Hedrick, 1863
* Church of Christ, Independent, Informal, Frank F. Wipper, 1927
* The Church of Christ, Otto Fetting, 1929
* Church of Christ, P.A. Ely, 1929
* Church of Christ, C.W. Humphrey, 1929
* Church of Christ, Samuel Wood, E.J. Trapp, 1930
* Church of Christ (Restored), A.C. DeWolf, 1936
* Church of Christ, E. E. Long, Thomas Nerren, 1936
* Church of Christ, Paul Hilgendorf, 1942
* The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message, W. A. D. Draves, 1943
* Church of Christ, Pauline Hancock, 1946
* Antarctica Development Interests or the New American’s Mount Zion, John Leabo, 1955
* Church of Christ at Zion’s Retreat, Gerald Hall, 1973
* The Church of Israel, Dan Gayman, 1973
* Break from the Church of Christ (Hancock), Davison, Michigan, 1973
* The Church of Christ, Restored Gospel 1929, 1985

Recommended reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25204 Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:56:04 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25204 (continued from last post)

@Brenkmanr654, you wrote: “Quick question: The churches that have broken off from the LDS church are considered to be what? Are they Mormons, “orthodox Christians”, or other?”

RESPONSE:
Well Brenkmanr654, that’s a tall order since there have been over 400 LDS denominations since the LDS Church was founded in 1830. I don’t know them all intimately so I can’t answer for all 400+. However, I do know the RLDS/Community of Christ (aka “CoC”) fairly well and the FLDS somewhat well.

In terms of being orthodox, The CoC largely adheres to the Essentials of the Christian Faith BUT is still holding onto the Book of Mormon and D&C as canonized scripture. They also still consider the false prophet Joseph Smith a true prophet of God. Due to these two things I know of no Christian church that considers them orthodox. In a nutshell, the CoC holds to pre-1835 Mormon doctrine which puts them into the same category as that church was. Christians from 1830-1835 didn’t accept Joseph Smith’s church as fully Christian so neither do I. Personally, as far as I’m concerned, as soon as they decanonize the BoM and D&C and renounce Joseph Smith and his false teachings at that point I would have no problem calling them orthodox, however, this is my opinion only.

In terms of the FLDS, they’re easy: They don’t adhere to the Essentials of the Christian Faith so, no, they’re not an orthodox Christian church.

NOW, that said, since BOTH groups DO adhere to the essential doctrines of the Latter Day Saint Faith that you’ve given – that is, The Articles of Faith – they ARE Mormon, correct? In fact, all the Mormon denominations that I know of would agree with and adhere to the AoF, so they’re ALL Mormon, correct?

I will anxiously be awaiting your answer. Thanks.

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25202 Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:37:22 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25202 @Brenkmanr654, you wrote: “if you would like a list then I would exhort you to study and ponder the 13 Articles of faith, which can be found at the back of your Book of Mormon (if you have a copy), or on the LDS websites (lds.org, mormon.org, etc…).”

RESPONSE:
Thank you. Actually I’m quite familiar with the AoF which says:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

– continued –

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By: brenkmanr654 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25195 Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:27:51 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25195 Fred if you would like a list then I would exhort you to study and ponder the 13 Articles of faith, which can be found at the back of your Book of Mormon (if you have a copy), or on the LDS websites (lds.org, mormon.org, etc…).
Quick question:
The churches that have broken off from the LDS church are considered to be what? Are they Mormons, “orthodox Christians”, or other?

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25092 Wed, 07 Jan 2015 21:10:54 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25092 @Brenkmanr654, you wrote: “And so Fred, the question should not be what are the essential doctrines of the Mormon faith?”

RESPONSE:
Respectfully, please don’t play that obfuscating Robert Millet, “Answer the question that they SHOULD have asked rather than the question that they asked” game with me.
(for those who don’t understand the Robert Millet reference please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zA-rZQB-xQ )

I have asked the question that I would like answered. Please answer it rather than dodging, deflecting, or obfuscating. I’ve given you a clear, concise, list of the Essential Doctrines of the Christian faith. Now let’s see the Mormon equivalent.

Thanks.

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By: brenkmanr654 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25087 Wed, 07 Jan 2015 18:51:37 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25087 Fred W. Anson
You wrote:
Please tell us, what are the essential doctrines of the Mormon faith?
Response:
All the doctrines, principles, ordinances etc… that are taught in the Mormon Faith are essential. It just depends on who you are, and what your opinion is. For you cannot build a puzzle if you don’t have all the pieces, and the same goes for the LDS church. All our teachings connect with each other, in order to complete what we believe in. And so Fred, the question should not be what are the essential doctrines of the Mormon faith? But rather it should be how are the doctrines of the Mormon faith essential?

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25055 Tue, 06 Jan 2015 21:16:16 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25055 There’s a reason they’re called the ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Christian faith. Brenkmanr654. If you’re not in compliance you are believing and/or teaching something other than Christianity.

Now a question for you:

Please tell us, what are the essential doctrines of the Mormon faith?

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By: brenkmanr654 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25053 Tue, 06 Jan 2015 19:49:59 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25053 Can one be a Christian without being an “orthodox Christian”? Or is that simply impossible?

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25052 Tue, 06 Jan 2015 19:37:36 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25052 @brenkmanr654, you wrote: “So if I ask any of my friends who are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist etc… if they are “orthodox Christians”, they will say yes, Right?”

RESPONSE:
I don’t know, I’m not your friends.

Just as theological literacy levels vary in Mormonism they vary in mainstream Christianity too. Your theologically ignorant Christians might say “No” to one or more of them, but that says more about their ignorance than anything else. In order to answer the question accurate one would have to have enough knowledge of all three theological systems to make an accurate assessment.

However, those who theologically literate would generally agree that all the groups in your list are orthodox. The exception in some cases might be some Protestants who disagree with the Roman Catholic Church being in the list due to the unofficial doctrine of conditional grace that’s taught by some Catholic leaders. Some might also argue that the Roman Catholic Church has taken too much liberty on non-essentials thus pushing into an unorthodox position. For example, the doctrine of Mary as taught by some Catholics – including some past Popes is very concerning. However, OFFICIALLY and generally the Roman Catholic Church meets the criteria for orthodoxy. Even Martin Luther agreed with this.

However, that said, I seriously doubt that any of your friends are sophisticated enough to have nuanced the issue out as I just have. If they were they would have explained all this to you long ago and you wouldn’t need to ask me these questions now.

Further, there are extremists everywhere – neither the Mormon or Christian church is exempt from that. Finally, there are far too many on both sides of the divide who can only see things in either black or white – they lack the ability to nuance. I’m kinda getting the impression that you’re one of those Brenkmanr654.

Oh and BTW, brenkmanr654, we’re stilling waiting for the supporting evidence that I asked for two posts ago.

Thanks.

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By: brenkmanr654 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/12/13/weak-arguments-7-the-book-of-mormon-doesnt-have-a-trace-of-orthodox-mainstream-biblical-christianity-in-it-by-fred-w-anson/comment-page-1/#comment-25049 Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:52:01 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2469#comment-25049 So if I ask any of my friends who are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist etc… if they are “orthodox Christians”, they will say yes, Right?

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