Comments on: Weak Arguments #3: “I know what you believe, because Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie or some other general authority said…..” http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/ Sun, 17 Apr 2016 08:57:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19862 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:50:20 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19862 (continuing from last post)
Another “essential doctrine” statement that I’ve suggested as a kind of addendum to the AoF is the 1916 “The Father and the Son” (see https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng ). However, you have the same problem here that you have with the AoF – vast portions of LdS* theology are missing.

You wrote, “2) Official doctrine…changed by direct revelation from the Lord . Articles of Faith #9”

The other problem that we have here is the “what’s official?” question. Donald Ashton suggested this rather long winded suggestion back in 2010 on the StayLDS website: http://www.staylds.com/docs/WhatIsOfficialMormonDoctrine.html

However, it suffers from the fact that it’s (wait for it, wait for it, wait for it) not official!

No, here we are again – back at the beginning where we started. We’re really no closer to establishing a set of essential doctrines for the LdS Church than when we started.

It’s both frustrating and exhilarating isn’t it?
😉

* Little “d” this time – since the Father and the Son only applies to the LdS denomination within the LDS Church not all LDS denominations.

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19861 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:37:50 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19861 @Ned Scarisbrick, you wrote: “You need to be careful when defining what the word doctrine means. Doctrine can change.”

Well the meaning of the word “doctrine” doesn’t change – it always means, “a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group” The etymology of the word is pretty plain and simple: “late Middle English: from Old French, from Latin doctrina ‘teaching, learning,’ from doctor ‘teacher,’ from docere ‘teach.’”

So the meaning of the word itself remains the same, however, those beliefs or sets of beliefs can change over time as BYU Professor Charles Harrell demonstrated so clearly in regard to Mormon Doctrine in his classic “This is my Doctrine” series (see http://smile.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology-ebook/dp/B005FRGAFM and http://smile.amazon.com/This-Is-My-Doctrine-Development-ebook/dp/B005FRGG42 )

Harrell also makes the point in these books that Systematic Theology is impossible in Mormonism due to the doctrine (there’s that word again!) of continuing revelation. But that’s another discussion for another day.

“I think the articles of faith are the best “official” teachings (doctrine) of the Church.”

Well, I used to hold to that myself as a matter of fact – that is until I got corrected by both some Mormon and Christian Scholars. There are significant problems here:

1) The 5-points of the archetypal Mormon Testimony aren’t represented in the AoF.

2) Ditto for key points of the Temple Recommend Interview – these are clearly a point of orthodoxy, they really can’t be ignored.

3) In fact, as mentioned previously, the Temple and it’s underlying covenants and commandments aren’t even mentioned in the AoF. Since Temple Endowments are key to Mormon soteriology they’re germane to any discussion of doctrinal essentials.

These omissions aren’t accidental. The audience for the Wentworth Letter (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wentworth_letter ) from which the AoF was mainstream Christian and the letter was written in a time when tensions with the “Gentiles” was rising in Illinois. As a result, the Wentworth Letter in general, and the AoF in particular, were written to sound as “Christian” as possible – which is why key tenets of LDS Theology are missing.

So, the AoF, isn’t sufficient on it’s own.

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By: Ned Scarisbrick http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19834 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 01:36:22 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19834 I think the articles of faith are the best “official” teachings (doctrine) of the Church. You need to be careful when defining what the word doctrine means. Doctrine can change. The Old Testament (old covenant) and the New Testament (new covenant). I would say the there are several levels of teachings or doctrine in my view.
1) Eternal truth…does not change
2) Official doctrine…changed by direct revelation from the Lord . Articles of Faith #9
3) Official policy…the operational doctrine of the Church. Can change as needed.
4) Cultural standards…as appropriate for any given location.
5) Brother Ned’s teachings…that last in line. :-)

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19829 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:55:21 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19829 Fair enough. Then are you aware of an official list of essential doctrines for just the LdS Church? I’ve been looking and asking for one for years with no satisfaction yet.

And if those other “groups that claim the Mormon moniker” aren’t Mormons then what are they?

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By: Ned Scarisbrick http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19827 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:42:05 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19827 We might be talking past each other here. My comments are related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not any of the other groups that claim the Mormon moniker. What others believe and teach is their own business. Sorry for the confusion I should have made that clear up front.

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19826 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:22:00 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19826 “Being “saved” or what some may call general salvation is being received into any degree or level of glory within the judgment of rewards when the Savior makes up His jewels at the last day. This is common knowledge in the LDS faith not just my opinion. So this is not about my authority to make such claims. I hope this helps.”

Thank you that does clarify. However, it also opens up another can of worms since it makes a distinction between general and special salvation. Not all LDS groups hold to Three Degrees of Glory doctrine. And since D&C 132 was never canonized in some of their versions of Doctrine & Covenants Celestial Exaltation isn’t a factor.

So I think we have to put this into the “Denominational Essential” bucket too.

Interesting issue isn’t it?

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19825 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:15:00 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19825 “i would say that obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel would include the temple. If I’m out of line here I would be well pleased to stand corrected though.”

Well, put that way I can see it as a point of DENOMINATIONAL orthodoxy for the LdS Church only since none of the splinter group have the same temple requirements. Further, those that do have endowments often don’t observe the Nauvoo endowments that the LdS Church does.

For example, the RLDS/CoC adheres to the Kirtland endowments only and ignores the Nauvoo “add on’s” that came later.

Of course this is problematic because in LdS theology the temple is a key soteriological requirement for full salvation (aka “Celestial Exaltation”) is it not? Therefore, if this is included in the essentials of the LDS Church then it effectively eliminates all LDS denominations except the LdS Church.

By the way, a clearer definition of the five key points of a Mormon testimony is:

1. I know that God is our Heavenly Father and He loves us.

2. I know that His Son, Jesus Christ, is our Savior and Redeemer.

3. I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. He restored the gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth and translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

4. I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s Church on the earth today.

5. I know that this Church is led by a living prophet who receives revelation.
(see https://www.lds.org/friend/2008/10/testimony-glove?lang=eng )

I should have used this source instead of the Mormon.org source to begin with.

Ned, shouldn’t all of these 5-points be in the essentials too? Or are these only denominational essentials too?

Please advise.

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By: Ned Scarisbrick http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19823 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:07:00 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19823 I was just listing what I though were essentials of the faith. Not a extensive well researched list to be sure just what I came up with at the time. My purpose in extending the phrasing in the articles of faiths #3 was just for clarifiication. As you may know the term “salvation” within the LDS Church is defined as exaltation within the celestial kingdom. Many non-LDS Christians do not make this distinction. Being “saved” or what some may call general salvation is being received into any degree or level of glory within the judgment of rewards when the Savior makes up His jewels at the last day. This is common knowledge in the LDS faith not just my opinion. So this is not about my authority to make such claims. I hope this helps.

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By: Ned Scarisbrick http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19822 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 22:51:27 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19822 i would say that obedience to the laws and ordiances of the gospel would include the temple. If I’m out of line here I would be well pleased to stand corrected though.

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By: Fred W. Anson http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/10/04/title-weak-arguments-03-i-know-what-you-believe-because-brigham-young-said/#comment-19821 Tue, 07 Oct 2014 22:48:46 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2346#comment-19821 “There seems to be no mention of the temple there too which seems interesting.”

True that Bobby. It’s also missing some of the five key elements of the archetypal Mormon Testimony which according to Mormon.org is:

“…the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves us; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is a prophet, which God called to restore Jesus Christ’s church to the earth; that we are led today by a living prophet; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior’s Church restored on the earth today.”
(see http://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-testimony)

It also is missing MAJOR key elements of the Temple Recommend Interview which are as follows:

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
(source = http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/templerecommend.htm )

Given the weigh that’s given to these points I would think that they should be in any list of at least LdS (aka “Brighamite”) Essentials. I always get puzzled when they’re missing.

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