Comments on: General Conference April 2014. Sunday Morning Session, by Vince Mccann http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/ Wed, 09 Sep 2015 20:49:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Henry Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-11103 Wed, 30 Apr 2014 09:44:39 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-11103 Ah the more things change the more they stay the same
http://www.savethetribune.com/

The Mormon church owned Deseret news are trying to drive the none Mormon Salt Lake Tribune out of business, what a surprise.
Perhaps if it does go down Pres. Monson will lead a ceremonial burning of the presses, it would be in the Mormon tradition after all?

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By: shematwater http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10866 Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:50:16 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10866 If you still claim he incited a riot than I have to believe that you did not read the witness statements at the Nauvoo Court when he applied for Habeas Corpus. Those witnesses clearly show that there was no riot.
You also seem to ignore the deliberations of the City Counsel, disregard the legal powers that the City Charter granted them, and want to make everything stem from Joseph Smith. Yes, he called the questions in the meeting of the counsel, but it was the counsel’s decision and under the authority the City Charter gave them (which you either have not read or do not understand the legal nature of such a charter).

Now, I am very familiar with the meaning of the word prejudice. However, I think you fail to recognize the true context of my comment, because the definition I would give to it is “unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.” In this case it is a religious group, with particular focus on the founder. Whether you have reasons for the feelings, opinions, or attitudes is not the issue. The issue is whether or not those reasons are of a reasonable nature, which, from your words and expressions, I have seen very little reasonableness.

I have not been libelous in any way, as I have stated my honest opinion, and the words I have used perfectly reflect that opinion. Now, you can be insulted by my opinion, and that is your privilege. But an opinion cannot be libelous.

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By: Henry Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10742 Tue, 22 Apr 2014 01:06:37 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10742 Thanks for that link, I’ve read it with interest and found it backs up everything I have said, that Joseph, was acting illegally, was overstepping his authority as mayor, was guilty of inciting a riots and deliberately causing the destruction of private property for his own reasons. Everything the expositor accused him of has since been historically proven true, so he was trying to suppress the truth and stifle freedom of speech as I have claimed.
So your assistance in providing additional supportive material is much appreciated.
By the way the dictionary definition of prejudice in this context is “preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience” before you falsely accuse me of it a third time I would consider whether or not I have been reasonable in my statements of historical facts and consider my previous experiences as a Mormon (before choosing to leave the LDS) in good standing. I don’t think you fully understand that this is the meaning of the word but if you do then you are being deliberately libelous and that is what I found insulting, however if your use of it in context was simply the result of your own linguistic ignorance then I too am sorry.

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By: shematwater http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10741 Tue, 22 Apr 2014 00:13:15 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10741 Henry

When most of what you say is inflated opinion as to the attitudes and personality of people involved rather than actual facts it is not hard to see the anger and prejudice in your words. If you are insulted by it I am sorry.
I have read the court records regarding the incident of the Expositor, as well as eye witness statements from people who were completely unconnected to Joseph Smith and the church who stated clearly what I have posted.
Try reading this, as it is a good start, and contains most of the historical documents involved in the affair. http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/carthage/carthagehome.html

Now, your posts are there, and everyone can see exactly what I pointed out. If that is not what you meant than you need to revise your statement to be clearer to the reader, because the way it is worded now it means exactly what I said it means.

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By: Henry Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10716 Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:34:20 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10716 Sorry Shematwater the posts are there anyone can read what was written, if you cannot comprehend those words then I feel sorry for you too.
I am not hate filled, but am righteously outraged at the lies and misdirection peddled by the LDS as “fact” or “matters of faith” and will point them out as such.
But before you start throwing around accusations of hate and prejudiced, look first at who in this conversation is the one writing angry, and insulting, rhetoric that might be considered an ad hominem attack? Motes and planks again?
On the matter of atonement, well the faith vs works argument has been going on so long it is a parody of itself now. The LDS try to have it both ways, by relocating the atonement and then having three levels of heaven, rather than a straight heaven and hell, (but still including damnation just in case) so as to have the atonement allow greater degrees of salvation rather than salvation, just another of their little games to market their “faith” to the widest possible demographic.

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By: shematwater http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10697 Mon, 21 Apr 2014 01:46:58 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10697 And you talk about skewing history? You are the one who has skewed history so much that any knowledgeable person would not recognize it. You are the one filled with hate and prejudice, not the church, and I feel sorry for you.
Personally, I agree with you on what you say regarding most Christian thoughts on the atonement, but this is not what we believe, and it is not what the church teaches, or has ever taught. Of course, if your mind is so skewed on what is actually historical fact than it is not surprising your view on church doctrine is skewed.
The LDS church has always taught we will be judged according to our works, and if we do not pay for them in this life we will in the next. The Atonement does not absolve us of anything; it merely makes payment possible.

“Jeremiah, Jonah, Jesus and others they all pleaded that if they obeyed they would be killed”

You gave a list of those who asked to die rather than teach unpopular doctrine. In that list you included Christ. As such you most certainly said that Christ asked to die. Once again we have you attempting to rescue your obviously biased and inaccurate statements by denying that you actually made them.

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By: Henry Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10679 Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:34:33 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10679 I’m sure you do feel you mean no harm and that you wish me peace but I am afraid you have no right to apologies to me on behalf of anyone else. This is I am afraid one of the great problems behind the whole of Christian theology, the ridiculous idea that someone can atone for the sins of another and that a “Saviour” is necessary. This whole idea absolves from responsibility the actions of any evil person or organisation and allows for the exploitation of the living without fear of consequence or conscience.
So I thank you but cannot accept your apology because the LDS church who have hurt me, hurt others, have blood on their hands and continue to destroy without conscience families, apostates, homosexual people, feminists and preach doctrines of hate and prejudice, would neither agree with or abide by your apology and would probably haul you before a “court of love” for doing so without their express authority. :)

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10662 Sun, 20 Apr 2014 02:41:57 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10662 Henry, This will cheer you up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5I51C-U8Og

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10661 Sun, 20 Apr 2014 02:38:28 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10661 On behalf of whomever hurt you – I am sorry. I mean you no harm. Peace Brother!

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By: Henry Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/15/general-conference-april-2014-sunday-morning-session-by-vince-mccann/#comment-10652 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 23:24:19 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2134#comment-10652 “Joseph left and then RETURNED”

Exactly, he LEFT his wife, he LEFT his son he left his thirty odd other wives and all of his followers including sixteen of the others for who arrest warrants had been issued and who DID submit themselves to the legal process and were not murdered.
Running and hiding from the consequences of your conduct are the actions of a coward.
He came back because his brother made him and it was likely that if he didn’t he would have been hunted down by not only the authorities but an awful lot of angry Mormons too.

John 10:39 “Therefore they sought again to take him: but he “escaped” out of their hand,”

Interesting that you choose John 10: 39, because this was an incident where a bunch of Jews rose up against Jesus tell his “truth” declared him and enemy and a blasphemer and tried to stone him to death as a public nuisance. That is a very close parallel to Joseph declaring the Expositor as blasphemous and trying to burn it to the ground.
This analogy of course casts Joseph appropriately enough in the role of the Pharisees, not the Christ though, you will agree?

“I wonder what you or I would have done in the same situation as Joseph.”
I would not have raised a mob and burned down someone’s livelihood to start with. Since there were laws in place, I would have gone to the court, file a petition and Legally applied to have the Expositor declared a public nuisance, by due process and to have become subject to a duely issued cease and desist order.
This being done there would have been no state and county intervention, no declaration of martial law and no act of treason or riot to be prosecuted for.
Joseph had these options open to him, but he wanted a show of power and to shut up a detractor who was only telling the truth about him and his many secret wives who his own legal wife was unaware of in contradiction to the rules on such laid out in the book of commandments (later known as the D&C).

“So many of the early Mormons were placed in similar situations and too many lost their lives or suffered unspeakable harm as a result of the hate against them and their beliefs”
Hardly, most of the harm that befell Mormons was due to Joseph’s habit of setting up fake corporations and banking concerns that robbed the locals wherever he went. This combined with the flouting of various laws including polygamy and his continued treasure hunting expeditions, lead to persecution and general mistrust of “the Saints” wherever they went.
“It’s the same kind of hate that has led to the slaughter of millions among various religious groups throughout history.”

Yes agreed, the Inquisition and the annihilation of the Anabaptists, the crusades, the persecution of the Cathars, the burning of the Catholics, the hanging drawing and quartering of the protestants, the Jones town massacre and the Wako killings to name but a few.
For a religion that preaches love and tolerance Christians sure do love killing and torturing their own. Mormons of course too followed this hallowed tradition, Blood atonement? The Mountain Meadows massacre? The Danites? and so on…..

Many prophets have struggled with human weaknesses.
None more so than Joseph Smith, who if you accept he was a prophet, failed in almost every aspect implied by that title, embodied and epitomised human weakness and died an ignoble death that his followers have been trying to spin in to a martyrdom ever since.

Thank you for the unexpected pagan good wishes and may the Springtime Goddess Ēostre grant you happiness and peace too.

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