Great to hear you have had a good Easter. I was playing in the worship band on sunday morning at my church, always a good time to see guests coming into church who might otherwise not come.

To be fair I certainly believe and appreciate that Jesus is not only your spirit brother. I know often in Mormon circles He is refered to as our elder brother. This is not some passive background Mormon belief, however I appreciate that His significance does not end there at all. However for evangelicals this is a key example of God being made to be the same as man, just in a more advanced position and is seen as utterly heretical.

I think your initial outright denial of Satan being Jesus brother without explaining that since they were in the premortal state this has changed was a little cheeky as people who did not know that background may think you are saying it has no place in Mormon belief, which is not true. This is why I often have to bring quotes like that out with Mormon people as thats how you get them to expand more on what they are really saying, just an observation.

However looking again at one of the quotes it does not seem to support what you are saying.

“According to our teachings, Satan and an army of supporters were cast down to earth from the premortal spirit world. They are spirit brothers of ours, and are real persons having spirit bodies” (Joseph F. Merrill, Conference Reports, April 1941, p. 49).

Sounds like present tense to me. Even the other quote does not seem to be saying this is no longer the case. One of the problems with dialoguing with you Michael is you often speak as though what you are saying is authoritative Mormonism, the reality is that you are one of many Mormons coming out with one of many viewpoints, sadly the apologetic types like you are often contradicted by your leaders. I have and always will look to their words over regular members for authoritative Mormonism and that seems to be saying something here contrary to what you are.

Just I can then give a one time fuller response. thanks a lot

Ok, back to our discussion:

1) Bobby stated, “Michael I think you are not being totally upfront with the LDS perspective on Jesus being our and Lucifers brother.”

My response:
I’ll start out with the same response I had before,” Mormonism believes Jesus is “far more than our brother”. He is our Savior. He is our King. He is our Messiah and He is in every way, one with Father and as our Father.

Yet, here’s what Jesus declared to Mary concerning His relationship and ours to Father at the time of His resurrection. “Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto “my Father, and your Father”; and to “my God, and your God”

Tonight, for Family Home Evening, our family saw the movie, “God’s Not Dead”. We really enjoyed it and teared up throughout (I’m a softy). In the movie, one character says what i’ve heard many Christians say, “Jesus is My Friend” and of course Jesus stated to His apostles, “Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you “friends”; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

In Mormonism, Jesus can be referred to as eldest Brother and as Friend, yet He is all of that and much much more. He is our Savior. He is our Redeemer. He is our King. He is our Messiah and He is in every way, one with Father and as our Father. [There is NO diminishment of His glory or lowering of His majesty in any of those references or relations.]

1a) As far as Satan – he is NOT our brother, nor the brother of Jesus. Mormonism does believe that “Lucifer” was a spirit child of Heavenly Father BEFORE his rebellion, who through false pride, narcissism, disobedience, and open and complete rebellion against God, willingly and eternally turned against God, casting off his place in the family of God, choosing instead to eternally become the son of perdition – no longer a son of God,

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

2nd President Brigham Young “What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:51)

Then there is the Spirit brother of Satan issue

“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was con- tested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind” (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

“According to our teachings, Satan and an army of supporters were cast down to earth from the premortal spirit world. They are spirit brothers of ours, and are real persons having spirit bodies” (Joseph F. Merrill, Conference Reports, April 1941, p. 49).

You as ever may not word it this way, but people with much more authority than you in the Mormon world have been only too happy to do so. But of course not anytime recently.

This one is Bobby :)

Hey Michael

1) You stated, “The Jesus of Christianity is not a created being”
Mormonism believes Jesus is the “firstborn” Son of God and “only begotten” Son of God in mortality (Matthew 1:23). What does the Bible say?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Paul taught in Colossians 1: 13 …”and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, “the firstborn of every creature:”
Romans 8: 29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
Hebrews 5: 5 “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, “to day have I begotten thee”.

We have a different way of understanding. As I understand it, in Mormonism every person has existed eternally in a pre-existent state, therefore for Christ to be a first born son, in this literal sense, born to his heavenly parents, you might consider him as having being born and not created, particularly as he (in Mormonism) already existed in some state.

As I understand it, anything that did not already exist, has been created. To be born is to be created. Jesus was not born in heaven but eternally existed with the Father and the Holy spirit. The only time that he was born was as a Man on earth.

John 1:1-2 (ESV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Within the pages of the Bible nowhere do we read about this pre-existant state. Christians understand the term ‘First born,’ to be referring to Jesus’ position. In the Jewish culture, the firstborn Son was Heir to a double portion of all that his Father had, therefore he would rule over his Fathers estate. The term ‘Firstborn’ can be literal, but it can also be a statement of |Authority or position. God called David ‘Firstborn,’ how could this be taken literally?

Psalm 89:20 (ESV)
20 I have found David, my servant;
with my holy oil I have anointed him,

Psalm 89:27 (ESV)
27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.

You quoted
Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Again, given the difference in our theologies. ( We do not believe that we were born as spirits in haven by the same heavenly Father and Mother as Jesus)

We have a different understanding of the term brethren. We understand Jesus to be speaking spiritually but not in any way literally. In Mark 3:30-35 we read Jesus saying that those who are with him are his mothers and brothers

Mark 3:30-35 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers[a] are outside, seeking you.” 33 And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said,“Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

If we are to take brother and sister literally, then surely we should be taking Jesus calling us His Mothers literally too?

Jesus tells us clearly that we are not like Him, He is totally Other from us.

John 8:21-24
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

How would this verse fit with your understanding of the Pre-existance? What is Jesus talking about?

2) You stated, “Jesus is not our brother”
Mormonism believes Jesus is far more than our brother. He is our Savior. He is our King. He is our Messiah and He is in every way, one with Father and as our Father.
Yet, here’s what Jesus declared to Mary concerning His relationship and ours to Father at the time of His resurrection. “Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto “my Father, and your Father”; and to “my God, and your God”

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[b] being born in the likeness of men.

John 8:58 (ESV)
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Jesus was Making a statement to the Jews. God had made himself known as “I AM” Jesus was declaring Himself to be God, this is why they responded by picking up stones to stone him for his perceived Blasphemy.

Exodus 3:14 (ESV)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”[a] And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The very fact that Mormonism teaches Jesus is our Brother, lowers Him from His Majesty. Jesus was not created, He did not have a
beginning, he eternally has being and always will be God. The Mormon Perception of God, God the Father and Jesus is so much less than that which Christianity Holds, it’s like comparing a candle flame to the Sun. Our God is Holy and awesome, there is no other God, anywhere, ever, like Him. Jesus is part of that Godhead, we are merely his creation.

After Christ;s resurrection Mark records:
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” Mark 16:19
After Christ’s resurrection, Matthew records, “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” Matthew 28:17-18.

Or was Jesus simply having restored to him what was already his?

John 17:5 (ESV)
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

My response: Thank you for the honesty of your statement. I sensed this is really what you want people to believe – that President Eyring is not a Christian and that we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ… are not Christians and maybe even worse, that we are wolves in sheep’s clothing seeking to harm others.

Let’s take each one of those descriptions of Jesus you have assigned to Mormonism and see what Mormonism truly believes and/or what the Bible says:
1) You stated, “The Jesus of Christianity is not a created being”

Mormonism believes Jesus is the “firstborn” Son of God and “only begotten” Son of God in mortality (Matthew 1:23). What does the Bible say?

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Paul taught in Colossians 1: 13 …”and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, “the firstborn of every creature:”

Romans 8: 29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Hebrews 5: 5 “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, “to day have I begotten thee”.

2) You stated, “Jesus is not our brother”

Mormonism believes Jesus is far more than our brother. He is our Savior. He is our King. He is our Messiah and He is in every way, one with Father and as our Father.

Yet, here’s what Jesus declared to Mary concerning His relationship and ours to Father at the time of His resurrection. “Jesus saith unto her, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto “my Father, and your Father”; and to “my God, and your God”
.
3) You stated, “Jesus is certainly not the brother of Satan”

Mormonism agrees. Satan is the son of perdition and not a son of God

4) You stated, “The Jesus of Christianity laid aside his Glory, to become a man, He didn’t become a man in order attain to that Glory”

Mormonsim believes that Jesus was glorious prior to being born into the world, that by Him the world was created.

Mormonsim also believes what Paul taught in Hebrews 5: 8 “Who in the days of his flesh, … Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered (Gethsemane, the cross, etc.); And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
and
Hebrews 2: 18 “For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted

After Christ’s resurrection, Christ declared, “…Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:” Luke 24:46

After Christ;s resurrection Mark records:
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” Mark 16:19
After Christ’s resurrection, Matthew records, “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” Matthew 28:17-18.

Clearly, through His faithfulness through His ministry, Gethsemane, the cross and resurrection, Jesus ‘s capacities and glory were added upon.

Conclusion: Mormonism does NOT present a different Jesus to the one presented in the Bible, as I have shown.

.

For the sake of time I won’t comment on every point that you’ve made, but if I miss anything you really wanted a response to then just let me know.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

This verse is talking about God giving us wisdom. If I need wisdom, I would apply this verse, however if I needed to know if it was ok to kill, for example I wouldn’t ask God, and I wouldn’t expect Him to answer. God has already revealed this truth to us in His word. The same applies with praying about a new book, (as the book of Mormon was,) and asking God if it is true. God has already revealed his truth to us in the Bible, so our first port of call should be, does it line up with Gods word that we already have.

You could say The book of Mormon itself does contain a lot similar messages, some almost word for word compared to the bible, which I believe is because these passages were plagiarised. The question shouldn’t really be though, is the book of Mormon true, it should be is Mormonism true. Many of the LDS beliefs which strongly differ from Christianity are not contained in the Book of Mormon itself.

5. Let’s put them all together for a fuller message:
“Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive (READ, STUDY, PONDER) these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”#

So basically the potential convert is also instructed to read study and ponder? Is this really the case though? I’ve met with Missionaries several times and quite quickly the subject has come up, and I’ve been asked to pray and see if the Book of Mormon is true. At this point I hadn’t been given all the facts, I believe its referred to giving the milk and not the meat. The full truth about Mormonism, and what exactly the convert is getting into is not revealed to them until much later, at which point their convinced that they have experienced a witness of the book of Mormon.

And here’s the bit which leads to circular reasoning…

if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

Potential convert… says, “I prayed and did not receive a witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Missionary…”Well you need to pray again, more sincerely, and having faith in Christ.”

After several attempts of praying, if the PC really wanted it to be true, their own emotions would surly come into play. After all the heart is deceitful above all things and is desperately sick, who can understand it. (Jeremiah 17:9)

John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he “will guide you into all truth”: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

Firstly it again comes down to does it (the BOM ) agree with Gods already revealed word. The Holy spirit will not confirm something which disagrees with what we have already been told. Secondly we have to make sure that we are not listening to our deceitful hearts or any other misleading spirits

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

I know you could point to this and say well there you are, we believe in Jesus. However Mormonism portrays a very different Jesus. The Jesus of Christianity is not a created being. He is not our brother and he is certainly not the brother of Satan. He is God and eternally has been and will be God. The Jesus of Christianity laid aside his Glory, to become a man, he didn’t become a man in order attain to that Glory.

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[b] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

If Mormons believe in a different Jesus to the one presented in the Bible is it really Jesus at all?

You commented on the Matthew 24
My Response: If we keep reading in Matthew 24, Christ continues with, “26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the beast, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
In this part of the chapter, Christ is talking about His 2nd coming. He goes on to reveal signs of His 2nd coming and concludes with this warning: “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I agree, however when he says many will come in my name, saying I am the Christ, remember Christ is not Jesus’ surname, “Christ” comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning “anointed one” or “chosen one.” This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Mashiach, or “Messiah.”

Wouldn’t you agree that there are false Messiah’s in the world today?

My response: James 1: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

2) You asked the question, “How is one to know Gods answer to this prayer?…”

My response: Missionaries don’t only share Moroni 10:4, but they also share Moroni 10:3 & 5. Let’s put them all together for a fuller message:
“Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive (READ, STUDY, PONDER) these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

Here are Christ’s words in John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he “will guide you into all truth”: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 2:9 “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God….But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Paul also taught in Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law”

Everything in President Eyring’s talk is completely in agreement with what is taught in the New Testament by Christ and His first apostles on this subject

3) With regards to Matthew 24:24 “For false Christ’s and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

My Response: If we keep reading in Matthew 24, Christ continues with, “26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the beast, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

In this part of the chapter, Christ is talking about His 2nd coming. He goes on to reveal signs of His 2nd coming and concludes with this warning: “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

President Eyring’s talk teaches principles of preparation and readiness for Christ, completely aligned with the message of Jesus Christ

Of false prophets, Christ also taught in Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. …A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. …Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

in his talk and in his life for that matter, President Eyring has produced an abundance of good fruit.

The Apostle John writes in 1 John 4:Beloved, believe not every spirit, but “try the spirits whether they are of God”: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:”

President Eyring’s confession to the women attending, “…I have a sure witness that God the Father watches over you in love. He loves each of you. You are His daughters in the covenant. Because He loves you, He will provide the help that you need to move yourself and others upward along the way back to His presence.
I know that the Savior paid the price of all of our sins and that the Holy Ghost testifies of truth. You have felt that comfort in this meeting….”

We can know for ourselves through the promise of James 1:5 and Moroni 10:3-5 which involve study, pondering, prayer and learning to listen and discern the manifestations of Holy Ghost which manifests himself in a variety of ways that may include a dramatic burning in the bosom for some, while others may experience a line upon line sensation of enlightenment and conviction over time with consistent effort. Paul taught of the diversities of the manifestations of the Spirit.
Here’s a good talk on that subject by a living Apostle, Elder Bednar: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-spirit-of-revelation?lang=eng

Thank you as always for the opportunity to respond.