Comments on: The Miracle of Forgiveness Chapter 4 reviewed by Stephen Livings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/ Tue, 17 Nov 2015 02:40:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-10081 Fri, 04 Apr 2014 02:05:20 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-10081 Stephen:
When I read the scriptures you’ve quoted, I understand them differently. One thing I try to do is read scriptures in their context and seek to compare and harmonize them with other scriptures to reach a more complete understanding.

For example, you quoted, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

I completely agree with that scripture. The difference is when I read “justified by faith” and “access by faith into this grace” I think of James 2 (and other NT scriptures) which tells us that doing God’s work is a key means of accessing His Grace by faith.. I also consider my own experiences with God and the communion with His grace I have personally experienced while doing any of those things on that list you quoted with the proper attitude of worship and devotion.
For example, I was baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost on Christmas morning when I was 11 years old. I’ll never forget the connection, sense of devotion and complete Grace I experienced from God that day. It was amazing to me then and amazing every time I think of it – even now as I type.

Another example: I had been serving as a missionary for about 4 months in another country. My assigned companion had only been in the country for 2 months. We were assigned to a more isolated and lightly populated part of the mission. We were new missionaries, still learning the language and how to be effective missionaries. It was so hot where we were and there was no air conditioning. We worked hard every day, but to no apparent avail. About that time I received word from home of the difficult time my mother and 4 younger brothers (ages 4-11) were experiencing as my parents were going through a divorce. On the same day, I received a Dear John letter. I hit a low, so low that I began to consider going home. I went on top of the roof (flat roof available like a porch) and kneeled and poured out my heart to God. I told Him, “you need to tell me in a way I cannot misunderstand that you want me to stay on the mission (I had 18 months left), or else I am going home.” Stephen, it was like a beam of pure love and light came upon me and filled my heart with a degree and depth of love that was so overwhelming I began to cry like a baby, knowing, at that moment I was in God’s embrace. The purity, the goodness, the strength, the healing, the conviction was all more than amazing and a direct answer to my prayers. Through prayer (#13 on the list), God revealed his love of me and for me when I needed it. He manifested His Grace through #13 on that list you quoted. I could share at least one spiritual experience associated with participating in every single activity you quoted on that list. All of them, provide us the opportunity to access and experience God’s Grace.

I completely agree with Romans 8:15-17, but why did you NOT include all of vs. 17 “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
Did you leave it out because there is a big “IF” included in it and a verb that follows it? Whenever there is an “if” and then a verb, there is always a manifestation of His Grace that follows (IF/THEN), “if so be that we suffer with him (Christ), that we may be also glorified together.”

With regards to John 3:16-17, KEEP reading! vs 21 But he that “doeth” truth cometh to the light, that his “deeds” may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

In reference to Ephesians 2:5-9 – I also agree when Paul says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith;” Paul also said Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
Doing God’s works are an integral part of true faith and when combined as one, as they are intended (“if ye love me, keep my commandments”), the windows of heaven are opened and we experience God more fully, we come to know Him more profoundly and line upon line, experience after experience, in process of time, grace by grace, we become more and more like Him. Everyone who has accessed His grace by doing what he has asked, knows that there is nothing to boast about, but there is much praise to offer our God.
Grateful to exchange ideas on these topics.

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By: stephenlivings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-10073 Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:11:00 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-10073 Just wondering if anyone had any comments on the ‘rebellion’ aspect of this review…

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By: stephenlivings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-10072 Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:04:26 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-10072 Hi Michael. I am having to type this out for a second time as something weird just happened to my computer, so to give the brief version of what I had said at some length first time round:

I believe the clearest way to show these two contrasting ideas regarding what is required for God to view us as righteous, thereby living with Him when we die and receiving and sharing in His glory is as follows:

LDS view (from Gospel Principles):

“He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:
1. We must be baptized.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.”

and as well as this:

“1. Love and worship God
2. Love our neighbour
3. Repent of our wrongdoings
4. Live the law of chastity
5. Pay honest tithes and offerings
6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
7. Speak the truth always
8. Obey the Word of Wisdom
9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them
10. Keep the Sabbath day holy
11. Attend our church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord
13. Have family and individual prayers everyday
14. Honor our parents
15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example
16. Study the scriptures
17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.”

Remember, this is necessary to live with God when we die and progress on to Godhood.

Now the Bible view:

“it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 4:24-25 and 5:1-2) and also:

“ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:15-17)

and the last two are very famous ones!

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:16-17)

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:5-9)

So I think it is clear that what the Bible says on how God deals with our sin and thereby enables us to live with Him is distinctly different and non-compatible with what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has to say about how it can be possible to dwell in God’s presence eternally.

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-10045 Thu, 03 Apr 2014 04:32:26 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-10045 Thank you Stephen for the link. However, I read through the scriptures and the commentary and have drawn a different conclusion..

For purpose of full disclosure, I am a pragmatist by nature. For me (based on study of the scriptures and personal experience), God’s works for His children are the fingers of the hand of His Grace. His works on our behalf (ie, the creation, giving His Son, the atonement which includes Gethsemane, the Cross, and Resurrection, preparing many mansions, establishment of His church, covenants, forsaking of sin, answers to prayers, providing for our needs, daily inspiration through the Holy Ghost, etc. etc) are all manifestations of His Grace to us.

Striving to do the works that He asks of us to do with Him (baptism, prayers, serving others, covenant making and keeping, thoughts, words and deeds, etc) are likewise the fingers of the hand of our faith. It is by totally relying on Him as we strive to do the works He asks of us that we are able to commune with Him and get to KNOW Him. It is how our faith in Him is manifest. He is then able to manifest Himself (His Grace) more fully to us which He always wants to do: Revelation 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

As Neil A Maxwell taught, “…the submission of one’s will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar. The many other things we “give,” brothers and sisters, are actually the things He has already given or loaned to us. However, when you and I finally submit ourselves, by letting our individual wills be swallowed up in God’s will, then we are really giving something to Him! It is the only possession which is truly ours to give!”

In Acts 9, Jesus intervenes in the middle of Paul’s sin filled life in a much more dramatic way than most of us will experience. Paul reacts by choosing to offer His complete will to Christ’s. Paul responds to Christ’s chastening, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”
“And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
“Doing” was a critical part for Paul’s conversion/salvation as it is in ours.

The “doing” is NOT for boasting and it’s Not to build a resume. The “Doing” is the experiential process through which Christ is able to reveal Himself and His Grace to us, line upon line, precept upon precept, so that we can come to KNOW Him, His thoughts, His ways, His attitudes,His character, that we might become One with and like Him and the Father. This is a process. It takes time and experience walking and living with Christ. Sin interrupts that process and requires repentance through Christ. All of this is not a one time event .

As C.S. Lewis understood, “The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said (“Be ye perfect”).”

This is the same message Spencer W. Kimball seeks to convey.
Thank you for the opportunity to share.

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By: stephenlivings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-10027 Wed, 02 Apr 2014 20:23:28 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-10027 Hi Michael. Thanks for your points detailed above. Conversations with people responding to my posts always end up coming round to these themes. Hmm, I wonder why that might be! :-D As such, I feel the same cycle of conversation tends to take place. So, instead of trying to continue the back and forth as I normally would do, I will instead recommend reading Bobby’s article here: http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/02/07/we-are-saved-by-grace/ which outlines in great detail how the Bible teaches us that salvation is received as a gift of grace, where our works don’t play a part, but also demonstrating the role of works in the lives of Christians.

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-9998 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 21:57:42 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-9998 Stephen,
1) One has to read through to the concluding chapters of “Miracle of Forgiveness” to understand the whole message.
2) Romans 8: “… “if so be that we suffer with him”, that we may be also glorified together” Becoming joint heirs with Christ includes the exercise of our faith which is and includes doing His works because faith without works is dead! One of those works He requires is Baptism for the remission of sins.
3) When Spencer W. Kimball writes, “abhorrence for sin impels us to transform our lives through repentance”, inherent within the words, “through repentance” is the Grace of Christ. There is no “repentance” without the Grace of Christ.
4) For exaltation, we need His works which are an integral part of His Grace and we need to do His works which are an integral part of our Faith. Combined, they all provide the opportunity for what Jesus taught, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect..”

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-9997 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:27:24 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-9997 Joanne, To your question: Have you been born again through faith in Christ alone?
My Response: Yes

James 2; 14 “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”

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By: stephenlivings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-9996 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:18:32 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-9996 Hi again Michael,
Just seen your comments: ” I’ve never heard any teaching that suggested, “Mormons are striving to …get points to reach a higher heaven.”

In essence the following quote sums up the same view, even if it is worded rather differently: “If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children ” Gospel Principles – Chapter 47

If you read the rest of that chapter you will see that there are a great many steps on that road that reaches to a ‘higher heaven’ or the ‘highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven’.

Your reference from Romans 8 when looked at within the whole chapter is clearly teaching that those who show faith in Jesus are those who God calls his children: “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” So children of God are joint-heirs with Christ, they are adopted into his family and therefore share in that inheritance. There is no list akin to the one in Gospel Principles manual that outlines works and ordinances that are required to qualify for this.

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By: stephenlivings http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-9995 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:04:13 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-9995 Hi Michael. I think Joanne sums it all up very well, but I would simply point out that in comparing Paul’s warnings and condemnation of sin with the chapter I have reviewed here (as well as chapters 2 & 3) I see a world of difference. Paul’s writings are infused with earnestly teaching the reader of God’s grace. Read the books of Romans and Ephesians that you refer to from start to finish and this is abundantly clear. Galatians is another excellent example of this. As I said in the review above, in this chapter Kimball takes up eleven and a half pages of dense text outlining sixteen sins, and writes only one sentence offering any sort of hope. That sentence says: “As sinners we will better appreciate his love and kindness if similar abhorrence for sin impels us to transform our lives through repentance.” So clearly this sentence is saying that it is what we do that will ultimately free us from our sins. So my take on that balance of the in-depth 11 and half page description of sin followed by one sentence telling us it is our actions that take us out of our sins is precisely what I said: “Sort yourselves out, keep telling me you’re sorry, and one day I may deem you worthy to receive my love and kindness”. You can hardly compare the writings of Paul with the words in this chapter when looking at what they have to say about sin, God’s love, grace and the role of our own works in all of this.

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By: Michael http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2014/03/31/the-miracle-of-forgiveness-chapter-4-reviewed-by-stephen-livings/comment-page-1/#comment-9994 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:53:35 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=2089#comment-9994 Joanne,
I’ve been a Mormon for 34+ years and I’ve never heard any teaching that suggested, “Mormons are striving to …get points to reach a higher heaven.”
I have read in the New Testament where Jesus taught us to, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” or in Romans 8 where Paul taught, “16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

And then there is the Christian Scholar and author, C.S. Lewis, who taught, “The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him –for we can prevent Him, if we choose –He well make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”

Spencer W. Kimball is in good company. It is a difficult and sometimes painful process to acknowledge and confront sin in our lives. The message is that through Christ, that burden will be light.

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