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It is not clear what points the First Presidency was referring to, but the quote demonstrates the uneasiness with the circulation of the King Follett sermon as originally compiled by multiple sources and not reviewed by the Joseph Smith himself.

The King Follett Sermon was then left out of the publication of the 6th volume of History of the Church completely. Since that time, the King Follett Sermon has been reintroduced by later Church leaders who felt it sufficiently worthwhile.

President Hinckley made his comments specific to the Origin of God idea within the King Follett Sermon. There is clearly a lack of unity/belief that the origin of God is known and certain and therefore, it is left to the category of well meaning speculation and not within the category of core Mormon theology. Even within the sermon, the origin of God is expressed in a supportive role for the more important/applicable principle of our potential as God’s children – which is a core Mormon/Christian belief as expressed by Christ and His apostles in Matthew 5:48 and Romans 8:16-17, etc.

Before Jesus’ suffering in Gethsemane, His death and resurrection, Jesus said this, John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father:
“for my Father is greater than I.”

After Gethsamane, the cross and resurrection, Jesus has become our Eternal Savior and King and we become His, if we choose to follow Him. In position and status, He becomes as our Father (much more than an “older brother”.

(post Resurrection) Hebrews 5:9 “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

We don’t become the “author” of salvation like Christ has, but rather we have the opportunity to gain eternal life through Christ, our status and capacities always being dependent on His.

3) I agree with what Millet said about the pre-mortal status/role of Christ. That is NOT Christ’s status today. Jesus’ status has advanced far beyond that of faithful “older brother. He has become through His process and faithfulness throughout it (the creation, sinless mortality, Gethsemane, Resurrection) wholly like Father and the eternal author of our salvation as described in Hebrews 5:9

4) I have NOT rejected the statement of any leaders in this discussion. I have sought to explain their concepts in further context. I am NOT “very wrong” to characterize the idea that God was once a man as well meaning speculation. My view is the same as President Hinckley’s as expressed in 1997 and Joseph F. Smith (1902).

Generally, I know Evangelicals and Mormons are different in their theologies, but they are united in their love, devotion and recognition of Jesus of Nazareth as our Savior and Redeemer. Our covenant is with Him.
I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the exchange of thoughts and interpretations of scripture. What I always try to avoid is derogatory characterizations of the others’ beliefs. and thank you for your remarks at the end – I would agree – Amen!

Can I just say this numbering way of doing dialogue is so helpful, much easier to keep track and not miss points etc.

1) So did Christ not have to get a physical body and do all that was expected of Him by His Father in order to recieve His exaltation like we do? Of course what He had to do was different but the principle is the same is it not?

Joseph F Smith said

“Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a ful- ness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153).

Sounds like the LDS view of man to me.

A genuine question do you believe that you could be exalted to the same extent that Christ is? Be as glorious as He is? Or is what we can recieve a lesser glory? That is a genuine question that has come to my mind.

2) If the only difference between us was that I believe they are one God you believe they are 3 Gods that would be significant. However and I may get told off by evangelicals for this, I would not see it as anywhere near as significant as the extent of the differences between us. And by us I mean me and Mormonism rather than necessarily me and you, I will come back to that point. Here is an example, Bruce Mcconkie said

“Christ attained Godhood while yet in pre-existence, he too stood as a God to the other spirits, but this relationship was not the same one of personal parenthood that prevailed between the Father and his offspring” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323).

To say that Christ attained His Godhood, rather than to say He is eternal God and never had to attain it as I say just shows the absolute mass of difference between us. You are either being dishonest or very naive to say that what you have said in point 2 is the only difference we have, I think its merely scratching the surface.

3) So what do you think of what Millet has said? This is simply my general understanding if Mormon teaching, you guys all say different things so much it is sometimes hard to keep up.

4) Yes I do think that. On the surface Mormonism looks and sounds like a different Christian denomination for sure, if you look at the message of the missionaries and the surface message that comes across its not all that bad. However beneath the surface looking at what your leaders have actually said, and the meaning of the terms and the wider context of Mormon theology we see a faith so far from Christianity its unreal. The picture you paint in these discussions is far from the full one. Though as I have said this may be your genuine beliefs in which case good news, please keep rejecting the teachings of your leaders.

Islam affirms the existence of one eternal God, not an endless conveyor belt of promoted eternal supposedly all powerful beings. This is traditional Mormonism and you are very wrong in the eyes of myself and many Mormons to brush this aside as not doctrinal to say that God was once a man.

Coming back to your views on things, I said in a past post that you do not seem to know Mormon doctrine. I think in reality that’s not true, I am sure you know very well what your church has taught, and just do not accept a lot of it as true. I am currently listening to a fascinating Mormon Stories interview with Rock Waterman please check it out here

http://mormonstories.org/rock-waterman-and-pure-mormonism/

You may have come across him before. He runs the blog pure Mormonism. He rejects very openly a great deal of the teachings of the Mormon Church but holds steadfast to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I wonder if there is a little of what he is saying in what you are saying.

I think if Mormon Doctrine was pinned down to simply what the Book of Mormon teaches, which both Rock Waterman and I believe contradicts much of Mormon teaching. You and I may have a lot less to disagree on. Would you give at least the first part a listen and tell me if I am off in saying that.

I just also want to quickly say in all sincerity I think you are great, I love what you are bringing to this blog, its built for people like you to come and discuss and I hope we can keep a sense of friendship going in these discussions. We both want Gods best for each other so lets keep going.

2) On the link you provided for Trinity, it summarizes as this: “The Trinity: God is three persons, Each person is divine. There is only one God.” I think the only distinction Mormons would make is that where it says “God is 3 persons”, we would clarify with “The Godhead is made up of 3 persons, namely The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost.” We would wholeheartedly agree that “Each person is divine” and where it says, “There is only one God”, we would clarify with, “There is only one Godhead consisting of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost fully united in purpose and love.” We would add that the Father presides within the Godhead as Jesus declared throughout His ministry.
It seems to me from the summary on the link you provided, our beliefs are very similar. What is problematic for you about the Mormon view of the Trinity then or what distinctions are critical?

3) As we know throughout the Old Testament, the birthright is available to the Firstborn but received through faithfulness. While the birthright is available first and foremost to the firstborn as it was to Christ, it is faithfulness and acceptance of it that is ultimately required (“Here am I, send me”). Elder Russel M. Nelson 2013: “But neither your birthright nor your premortal ordinations and commissions can save or exalt you. That you will do through your individual decisions and as you choose to access the power of the Lord’s Atonement in your lives.”

4) You stated, “Mormonism is as Christian as Islam is as far as I am concerned bud”
My response: I think that is a harsh and unjustifiable opinion as Islam has no belief in the divinity or saving power of Christ, but it is an opinion and it’s yours to have Some might even see it as an “unchristian” opinion. I don’t know how voicing such an opinion can be helpful to your ministry to Mormons, except maybe to already disaffected Mormons.

No I didnt I say girls too just under point 1, however the vast majority of the time it is guys.

1) Jesus was fully God and fully man, as a man he increased in wisdom and stature. I am just rejecting the Mormon idea that He was more exalted after His resurrection than before.

2) Mormonism absolutely denies the Trinity this is universally accepted and often something apologists bring up quickly. However that does not mean you deny they are 3 persons just that they are one God. James Talmage said

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

That does not mean you personally reject it of course, I am often seeing that you and many LDS people have views different to that of LDS authorities (in some instances) however Mormonism as a whole is consistent with what I have said.

3) To the first half of what you said was not Jesus given this status before the heavenly council? in which case how does that work?

Also Robert Millet said

“Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the
recipient of the birthright of the royal family. As such, and in that
premortal realm, he was the Elder Brother of all of the spirit sons
and daughters of the Father” (BYU Professor Robert L. Millet, A
Different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, p. 20).

As far as I have always been aware this is the case, do you have any quotes etc to back up what you have said?

To the second half what do you say to the Joseph FIelding Smith quote, either you are unaware of a lot of Mormon doctrine Michael or its just another thing you are rejecting, which is great. I also have a number of others saying the same thing

“CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Sav- ior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33).

4) Doh now why didnt someone tell me that before and save me all this effort :) Mormonism is as Christian as Islam is as far as I am concerned bud, on the surface it looks similar but underneath it could not be more different. That does not mean that some Mormons are not Christians though.

1) You stated, “In Mormonism Jesus … went through His plan of salvation and earned His exaltation in the same way we all have too.”
My response: yes and no! None of us can endure what Christ endured and overcome what Christ has overcome to gain exaltation. None of us can or will have to suffer to His degree to gain exaltation. Only he can and does pay the price of our sins.
1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God…”
On the other hand, Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
There are some things Christ did that are also required from us, like Baptism.
Matthew 3: 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2) You stated, “They deny the Trinity, instead teaching that the Father, Son and Spirit are 3 separate gods.”
My response: As Matthew 3:13-17 demonstrates, Mormons believe in 3 distinct divine Beings (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) perfectly unified as one in purpose and love and being one Godhead.

3) You stated, “In Mormonism Jesus…He held the position of being a god in the pre-existence by virtue of being the firstborn, however He had to come to earth to gain a physical body and prove Himself worthy of exaltation in order to be fully exalted after the resurrection. Jesus went back to the Father a god in the fullest sense, which could not be said for His state when He left the Father.
My Response: Jesus being the firstborn is not what made him a God in the pre-existence. It was His faithfulness to Heavenly Father demonstrated by his declaration, “Here am I, send me “
Jesus didn’t “come to earth …to prove himself worthy of exaltation in order to be fully exalted after the resurrection”. He was sent to the world to prepare and show the way for all of us to become exalted. By so doing, He is eternally our Savior. Jesus was already a God, but became our Savior and our King but what he accomplished through His faith. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the blight of men.

4) You stated, “10, Be encouraged, Mormons do become Christians!
My response: We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ…. We are Christians :-)

This is a typical misconception of the Trinity, the idea that if God is one person how can Jesus pray to anyone as surely no one else is there. This is a heresy called Modalism which is that God is one person but sometimes appears as Father, Son, or Spirit.

Actually the Trinity is the belief that God is one in essence but actually 3 distinct persons. so Jesus is simply praying to the Father, the Father at the baptism of Christ is speaking to Christ etc. This is a bit of a mindbender but is actually what Trinitarians believe.

Maybe I will do a post on the Trinity sometime but here are some good articles explaining this more.

https://www.google.com/search?domains=carm.org&sitesearch=carm.org&q=Trinity

Please email me at [email protected] if you want to discuss this further as I would like to keep this thread on topic, thanks a lot.