Comments on: Updates On The Court Case.

By: Michael McAlpine

Michael McAlpine — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:45:34 +0000

My own experience in leaving the LDS has shown me that the love brought to the pulpit from the District President via the district councillors is only words. Like all the other love from the leaders. Since I last attended church in September 2012, not one of these people who all live within walking distance of my house has called in to see me. Mormonism may not officially shun but the result is the same. Local results may vary recognising the church is staffed with volunteers locally. At the root of the issue is chauvinism. Mormonism is the absolute truth and dedication to the corporat body as true is required and fostered in each fast and testimony meeting. This leads to bigotry within families. My own children mock my attendance at the Anglican Church. This all comes from the absolute claim of total truth in Mormonism and the utter falsehood of any other church.

By: Michael McAlpine

Michael McAlpine — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:27:09 +0000

Karen, thanks for your post. You make a very good point which I take to be that there is some difference between member perceptions and beliefs in the ground and what is presented as actual Mormon belief and practice. You mention tithing. It was mentioned that it is voluntary and that a person need only pay if they want to go to the Temple but in practice Mormons sing about going to the Temple have lessons about the importance of going to the temple and have talks in church about going. The and is true about tithing. These are not presented and discussed as options but as goals, aspirations and Ben requirements in our eternal progression. So, intellectually tithing is viewed as required. It is also required emotionally or socially. If one isn’t paying one is different from everyone who is doing the Mormon life right. What’s more most anyone laying attention will know. All the members of the Bishopric will know, the ward financial clerk will know and at least the Stake President will know if not more frequently but a least annually. But regular ward members will know. Most ward leadership and other callings are reserved for tithe payers. You can’t be in the EQP unless you are a tithe payer. Ward clerks are also tithe payers. You can teach many classes and not be a tithe payer. Over time, ones church career potentially reveals one’s tithing status. As the leadership changes in the unit, one’s status becomes known to a wider group of people. So the social or emotional pressure can mount to where one feels that paying is not optional. However, in short, other than on a blog in the last few months have I ever heard paying tithing is optional. Anyone who says that is not exactly being untruthful but has to ignore the “lay of the land” to say so.

By: Henry Lions

Henry Lions — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 02:58:47 +0000

Of course I cannot give you a page number and if you legitimately have a copy the Handbook of instructions you know full well why not. If you do have a copy and you don’t know why not then your claim to have been in church leadership positions is false, which would explain why you don’t know the temple recommend questions either.
This being the case continuing a dialogue with you is a pointless exercise, I’ve already facilitated your embarrassing yourself quite enough.

By: Michael

Michael — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:03:10 +0000

Dane, Wasn’t it Tom Phillips who made the claim that the first Judge actually assisted him in writing up the summons in such a way so that she could justify issuing the summons? From a US legal perspective, it seems strange, maybe even inappropriate or unethical for a Judge to write up a complaint on behalf of another that the Judge would then make a decision about. Maybe it’s different in the UK, but that really seems like a conflict of interest to me. What are your thoughts?

By: Michael

Michael — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:48:00 +0000

Henry, There is no policy on “shunning” in the Church. I don’t know about before the 1950″s, but there certainly hasn’t been for the 34+ years I’ve been a member. FYI – I looked through the 2010 Handbook 1 you referenced and do not find the temple recommend questions. Do you have a page number you can reference?

By: Henry Lions

Henry Lions — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:02:22 +0000

Michael, I too am sorry that you continue to feel I am the one misleading people about the churches policy on Shunning, to make one last and hopefully definitive point on the matter, look at any copy of the Deseret News up until the late 1950’s published in and for Utah Mormons and you will see on the FRONT page a regular “news item” column listing the full names and partial addresses,of ex-members along with their date of leaving or excommunication. This was done in a name and shame feature informing members in good standing of who these menaces to their testimony. were and where they came from so they could be publicly ostracized.
It took a legal case to put an end to this “public Service” but all past copies are available on microfilm on request from the then church owned news paper’s archive.

Since my memory maybe failing me I have consulted with two ex-Bishops on the worthiness interview, one of who has only been out of the church a matter of months and who left while still a serving bishop.
I am reliably informed The question asked in worthiness interviews is usually put forward in the “Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1 Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics” is as follows

“Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?”

If you ask the Bishop or stake president to elaborate on this they will explain it as meaning sympathy for or with any apostate, excommunicate, anti-Mormon or ex-Mormon support organisation for the same.

In simple terms then to paraphrase the book of Mormon introduction and the D&C since “all others are an abomination in the sight of the Lord” the question asks do you only affiliate and associate with Mormons in good standing or those who agree with them and askew all others?

I think this clarifies the matter once and for all.

By: Dane

Dane — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:58:09 +0000

One point to keep in mind is that the first Judge, Roscoe, thoroughly examined Tom’s summons and even had him come in to answer some of her concerns as to “frivolously attacking a religion”, (which is her job, having done this job for some 20 years) and determined the case had merit. It’s my understanding that she re wrote (perfected) the original summons submitted by Tom Phillips.

Along comes the 2nd Judge, who’s legal position was/is equal to that of Judge Roscoe and finds completely opposite to Roscoe.

VERY strange.

Could it be that Orrin Hatch intervened and threw his weight around…or perhaps the LDS PR department found a way to “get to” the 2nd Judge? Or it could be the result of some worried Christian (Anglican?) group who lobbied the Judge or otherwise put pressure on him,
I honestly don’t know.

All I know is something strange happened that we are not privy to–to cause one Magistrate to roll so completely over another Magistrate’s findings so blatantly. Someone needs to interview Judge Roscoe to try to get to the bottom of this departure from legal protocol.

Either way, Tom Phillips has declared that he’s not done with this issue and that he has/had other alternatives as a plan “B”, “C”, “D”. etc. This was only round one.

By: Michael

Michael — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:46:38 +0000

Henry, I am sincerely sorry for your experience. I wasn’t trying to infer you are a liar, just clarifying for accuracy sake, It sounds like you’ve been out of the Church for some time and over time, especially with what you’ve gone through, memory of precise words may fade. I have been in local leadership positions at the Ward and Stake level for 20+ years and I have never witnessed a church leader encourage anyone to be shunned. I have been involved in many disciplinary councils and there is always an overwhelming desire from leadership to reach out and offer friendship and support no matter the outcome. I’ve also never witnessed tithing being used as a criteria in determining who to reach out to. In fact, we go above and beyond to reach out to active and inactive members who may be in need of temporal assistance, especially where children are involved. Maybe attending in a different area would be a refreshing experience for you? I live in Texas now and California before. If I can be of any assistance, i genuinely would be glad to help.

By: Henry Lions

Henry Lions — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:17:08 +0000

Michael please, drawing a parallel between the virgin birth (quite feasibly artificial insemination) The resurrection (all four gospels give a clear indication Jesus was drugged to save him while on the cross by soured wine on a sponge) and Joe Smith sitting with his head in Hat telling people he was translating from a set of Golden plates that were not even in the room vias a seer stone, or writing a translation dictionary from an Egyptian funeral scroll which still exists and is proven 100% wrong, then making up a work of fantasy from those translations and claiming them to be a whole new divine cosmology, is stretching credibility even for someone who thinks The Flintstones is an accurate representation of the stone age.

By: Henry Lions

Henry Lions — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:04:27 +0000

Michael, I too have been an active Mormon, a stake missionary and ran the “Lost sheep” program in my stake(which was a farce aimed only at recovering inactive formerly high tithe paying members, not apostates.). I have attended Worthiness interviews and do not appreciate your false representations and the inference that I am a liar.The question was and as far as I know still is asked in temple worthiness interviews.
When I left the church many of my friends informed me that they could not understand why the bishop and the stake president had told them to stop associating with me as I was a danger to their testimonies, even my wife was advised to be careful in talking to me on matters relating to the LDS, not surprisingly some including my wife followed me out on the strength of it.
Shunning is practiced, maybe not “officially” but it is, to the extent that I am aware of it as the cause of at least three divorces and the estrangement of several families.
So though I may be welcome to attend your Sunday meetings and I appreciate the invitation if sincerely given, I am afraid you could not pay me to do so, I am well out of the LDS and the more people I can encourage to do the same, or to never become involved in the first place the better I feel about it.