Comments on: Lorenzo Snow Manual Chapter 24, Reflections on the Mission of Jesus Christ

By: Henry Lions

Henry Lions — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 14:59:21 +0000

Here is a charming little teaching of President snow you wont find in the manual I am sure
taken from the Diary Excerpts of Abraham H. Cannon.
Elder Cannon would go on to father a dynasty of faithful high ranking Mormons including the famous Hugh J. Cannon
on July 15, 1886 he wrote:
“In the evening Rud and I had a conversation with Bro. Snow about various doctrines. Bro. Snow said I would live to see the time when brothers and sisters would marry each other in this church. All our horror at such a union was due entirely to prejudice, and the offspring of such unions would be as healthy and pure as any other. These were the decided views of Pres. Young, when alive, for Bro. S. talked to him freely on this matter.–Bro. S. believes that Jesus will appear as a man among this people and dwell with them a time before he comes in His glory. The Gentiles will hear of it and they will reject him, as the Jews did anciently, but they will have no power over him at all. –He says that if a man will place himself in a position where he is ready to sacrifice everything at the command of the Lord, he is then in a position to ask and receive Heavenly revelation.”

By: Ned Scarisbrick

Ned Scarisbrick — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:15:27 +0000

In response to Michael’s post, my position is that one cannot add to the Savior’s righteousness by our own works to gain salvation. Do works have a place in what we receive within salvation? I would say the scriptures are clear on this matter. Our works do follow us. What we will obtain within salvation because of our works is up to the Savior because all judgment is committed unto the Son. My understanding of evangelical protestant theology on the judgment is that there are two basic events. There is the great white throne judgment (the 2nd judgment or the judgment of the unrighteous) where all non believers are sent to hell. Then there is the judgment of rewards (the 1st judgment or the judgment of the righteous) where only believers are present. Our works have a place within this judgment of rewards. How much a place? I don’t know. I don’t care because it’s not my job to decide who gets what. That is the Lord’s job and whatever He decides will be perfect. Those who think they can decide for the Lord who deserves what in eternity are on shaky ground as far as I am concerned.

-Ned

By: Michael

Michael — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 04:42:34 +0000

Ned, I understand the position you take is tied to the role you play as a Mormon apologist and you may very well not know anyone who thinks as you say. The reality though is different then your experience. I sat in the Dunedin chapel here in 2012 and the question was asked as to whether a person could go to the celestial kingdom if they didn’t regularly attend church meetings. I was in the minority of one on the answer to that question.

Of course you are not referring to exaltation in your comment, but are also not fully representing the Mormon position. That position is tha Jesus suffered for sins in the garden so that those who repent can receive forgiveness. As Jesus was resurrected all will be resurrected but not everyone will live with God. Only those who repent and receive Mormon baptism, have qualified for and attend the temple etc are qualified to enter a life with God. This is what is quoted above from the 2009 Gospel Principles manual. I think you choose to comment without genuine candour when you make the sorts of comments you do.

By: Bobby

Bobby — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:03:58 +0000

Thanks for the Input Mike I will take that on board.

Ned I humbly agree with you that this is not the intention of the LDS member. I am saying as an evangelical that this is my view on what is actually going on, I accept the podcast invitation :)

By: Ned Scarisbrick

Ned Scarisbrick — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 02:07:55 +0000

Hey Bobby,
I don’t know any member of the Church who thinks that they can add anything to the Savior’s righteousness to further or gain their salvation. In and of ourselves the only thing we are worthy of is death and hell. Receiving the Lord’s mercy is getting what we don’t deserve. It is a gift and we cannot earn a gift. Please don’t teach that we teach otherwise. Perhaps we can talk about this in a future podcast.

-Ned

By: Michael McAlpine

Michael McAlpine — Sat, 21 Dec 2013 18:02:44 +0000

Bobby, thank-you for your post. I think that Colossians is a good reference on both parts of your post.

In 1.19 we have in Jesus the fullness of God – Gods word, wisdom, glory, spirit and power, all dwelling in the true Messiah.
And in verse 20 through the activity of the Messiah all things are reconciled to God. In the Greek katalaossō means to change hostility for friendly relationship. The prior state of hostility between creator and creation has now been restored. It is of interest to note that it is God who takes the initiative. He is the offended party but it is his initiative in reconciliation. Not only human beings are reconciled but all things creating a cosmic scope as also seen in 1Cor 5.19.

It occurs to me that here we have a Mormon doctrine of eternal progression and it gets stranded by the teachings in the Early church.

In Mormonism Jesus had not received a body and needed one. While he had achieved a great deal in his pre earth life, existing as a spirit child of his, and our heavenly parents he was still incomplete. Coming to earth to gain a body and finally becoming resurrected finally allowed Jesus to be fully like God. This doctrine is out of step with what Paul is teaching in Colossians.

Second, God has elected to reconcile creation. It is his action alone that has done it. We cannot then say we must do something to realise the reconciliation. The fact of the matter is that it has already happened. We are all included.

One final thing from me. It is important to not use the word incarnation or allow Mormons to use it when referring to the coming of Jesus in the flesh. In Mormonsim Jesus has come into the world like the rest of us to gain a body. As we see in the quotes you have provided, Jesus does not have the fullness of the Father. The word incarnation has to do with God coming as man and revealing himself to us and yet remaining fully God. This is quite different from what we see here in these quotes from the LDS manual.