Comments on: An Open Letter to Europe Area Presidency by Chris Ralph. http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/ Fri, 30 May 2014 16:23:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Chris Ralph’s open letter to the First Presidency & Quorum of Twelve: 23rd December 2012 | journeyofloyaldissent http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-8360 Sun, 23 Feb 2014 12:20:05 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-8360 […] http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralp… […]

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By: Mormon Reformation | DoubleThink http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5714 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:12:53 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5714 [...] The Church ignores the issues and questions of sincere truth-seeking members of the Church. We earnestly petition the Church [...]

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By: The 95 theses for mormonism | this is me! http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5631 Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:32:29 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5631 [...] The Church ignores the issues and questions of sincere truth-seeking members of the Church. We earnestly petition the Church [...]

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By: WOW! MUST SHARE … MORMON REFORMATION GROUP “95 LDS THESIS” « Ezekielcountdown's Weblog http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5607 Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:46:45 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5607 [...] The Church ignores the issues and questions of sincere truth-seeking members of the Church. We earnestly petition the Church [...]

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By: Mormon Reformation « Beggar's Bread http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5600 Sat, 16 Feb 2013 00:07:56 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5600 [...] The Church ignores the issues and questions of sincere truth-seeking members of the Church. We earnestly petition the Church [...]

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By: Petunia http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5545 Tue, 05 Feb 2013 17:14:52 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5545 Well said, Journey. Kerry’s example summed up the comments on here exactly; even down to assuming that our testimonies and abilities to receive the spirit must be faulty! I’m not even going to give you the benefit of a reply as it doesn’t deserve one. What presumption and how judgemental; and that is exactly what I have seen from nearly all the apologetics that have commented on this and other sites. Always attacking and judging and requiring further explanations without offering any concrete answers to our questions.

Like Journey, I don’t intend to continue this debate as I have said all I wish to say. Birds of a feather flock together and I wish DW and Magic all the best in their new-found friendship and purpose, but I know which flock I would rather be part of – and that’s the people that I have discovered, like Chris, Steve and Journey who leave their judgemental hats hanging on a peg.

God Bless.

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By: journeyofloyaldissent http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5543 Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:00:28 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5543 You have excelled yourself in proving my points. I particularly appreciate: “All the accusations you raise have an alternative explanation. Unlikely maybe, but possible and that’s good enough for me.”

In those two brief sentences you have helpfully disclosed to everyone the measuring rod you use to deal with uncomfortable realities. It is revealing and useful to see you illuminated in this light of your own choosing. But please try to understand that the entire cosmos cannot and never will revolve around “unlikely… but good enough for Ronnie”.

Personally, I have moved beyond LDS Apologetics. It began to corrode my integrity and proved a futile and thankless pursuit. Even that arch-apologist of many years, Kerry Shirts, recently posted in another forum: “Apologetics does it all backwards… I didn’t use or read or see any other side. I worked with blinders on and found just exactly what I wanted to come to the conclusion that I wanted it to… It’s all fluff and phony man. I can go back through those exact same sources I used, and select parts and pieces I left out originally and come up with an entirely different paper showing how vastly wrong it all is!”

Enjoy your LDS apologist belief if you feel it gives your life additional purpose and direction, and makes you a better, more moral and compassionate man. I would not try to force change on anyone, especially the already self-satisfied. It is clear to me that those who are genuine truth seekers will keep on seeking at any cost, and one day will discover the purity they have always sought.

Meanwhile, the doctrines and dogmas you or I might allow to shape our respective worldviews, are perhaps secondary. It is our relationship with God, and our commitment to truth, which will always define each of us.

May you fare well on your onward journey.

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By: Magic Fingers http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5541 Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:10:22 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5541 It seems you don’t get it either.
I received a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in exactly the way He promised, through the touch of the Holy Ghost years before I had even heard of Joseph Smith. I communed with that spirit frequently, and knew it well.
When I was subsequently taught thre restored Gospel, that same spirit which I knew and trusted bore witness to me of the truthfulness of Joseph Smith’s role in that restoration.
I had IMMENSE problems accepting the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I had HUGE problems accepting the Church’s stance on race. I was EXTREMELY critical of the white, American gerontocracy who lead the Church.
But I knew it was true, and I couldn’t deny it.
It took the paradigm shift I explained earlier to be able to accept these things, but having done that I now know the peace that Christ promised.
All the accusations you rasie have an alternative explanation. Unlikely maybe, but possible and that’s good enough for me. They’re a lot more “possible” than a great part of the Bible :)
I don’t know whether the people on here who deny the Church ever has the kind of testimony I had or just went through the motions. Many do this, I know, and it is easy to sway them with inconsequential arguments.
Personally, I think you are the ones being misled. You have swallowed some irrelevant truths, some manipulated half-truths and some downright lies which you now consider to be more important than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You consider the arguments and reasoning of men to be more compelling than the witness and testimony of the Holy Ghost.
I think you are wrong, and I will trust my God and the words of those whom I sustain as His prophets.
I had intended to leave this website alone, but was lured back by the responses to DWRogers. Maybe I will be stronger this time and resist the lure but to Brother Rogers I say “I salute you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant, in which covenant I receive you to fellowship, in a determination that is fixed, immovable, and unchangeable, to be your friend and brother through the grace of God in the bonds of love, to walk in all the commandments of God blameless, in thanksgiving, forever and ever. Amen.”

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By: journeyofloyaldissent http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5540 Tue, 05 Feb 2013 01:47:17 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5540 Magic Fingers: It’s becoming abundantly clear that you and your friend just don’t get what this is about. But that’s all right; I welcome your remarks because they serve a useful purpose in educating others who will in due course read this thread.

Please let’s clear up something though: no criticism whatsoever is being directed at those LDS followers who whole-heartedly consume whatever their leaders feed them. My letter holds the shepherds to account, not the sheep. In fathoming my purposes, you need only understand this much: When Mormonism supports truth then I support Mormonism. When Mormonism attempts to subvert truth, then I question it.

That is meaningful loyalty, involving some courage but no hypocrisy. Ultimately, Truth is what matters, not any –ism.

So, what do we see when we look objectively at what has taken place down the years within LDS congregations? If we are prepared to acknowledge it, we notice the deliberate, hierarchy-led cultivation of ignorance, concerning our spiritual heritage.

Now, it is fairly widely accepted that the rewriting of history to suit current political agendas, has been a cheap trick employed by many imperfect systems of government throughout time, but it is regrettable indeed to discover undeniable evidence of this practice also in an organisation which claims to be the Lord’s own true and living church. By definition, will you not agree, an organisation which relies upon deliberate misrepresentation cannot be wholly acceptable to God?

However, this apparently is the type of system you wish to support. How might that ever be reconciled with conscience? Where is the honour and the enduring value in such a system? Surely it is better to lobby for reform than to be poisoned in our pews by such fatal delusions. Or would you perhaps join the throng in attempting to shoot down Samuel the Lamanite if he preached reform on your city walls?

Make no mistake, large-scale coercion and misdirection of the people by historical deception is no small error of judgment to be easily overlooked. It is a veritable camel which you seem so eager to swallow. Yet you strain at a gnat in berating those whose questions might, perchance, prove instrumental in bringing hidden secrets of Mormonism’s fragility to the attention of the unwary.

How, we might ask, will these delicate and faithful souls you seem to think I am intent upon destroying, even come to know of the concerns I have raised with their leaders, unless they are already searching for something on sites such as this?

As for your decree directing us in how we should respond to the inner workings of belief, you presume to know what God alone knows, and accordingly I consider you presume far too much. Real history, and real historical reform is not so smooth a process, and God well knows it even if you don’t.

Had all followed your example throughout the last 2,000 years, forsooth, would we not all by now be Pharisees? Has it ever occurred to you, Magic Fingers, that perhaps that is what you have inadvertently become?

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By: Petunia http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2012/08/28/an-open-letter-to-europe-area-presidency-by-chris-ralph/#comment-5539 Mon, 04 Feb 2013 21:21:02 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=830#comment-5539 DW: your comment to me has largely been answered by journey and I agree with him completely. I’d like to tell you a little of my story.
Many years ago I chose the lds church because it was taught to me by missionaries and leaders as representing the truth. I held to that belief for many years, taught my children and even my mother. I was unhappy when some of my children and even my mother left the church. My mother tried to explain to me that it was based on lies but I wouldn’t listen – I thought she had been deceived by anti-mormons. So you see I have stood where you now stand.
I did everything I was supposed to do and I was obedient and faithful. I was even obedient to the admonition NOT to look on websites other than the church’s own. However, one day, I remembered about the BOA papyrus being found and I thought, surely it must have been translated by now and that it would vindicate Joseph Smith and I could prove to my mother that the church was telling the truth.
I was devastated to discover that the papyrus was nothing more than an egyptian funerary text. I read all the apologists explanations but their answers were unsatisfactory and unconvincing. It was a horrible time for me, just as it was for Steve and Chris and the many others I have talked to. I was standing on a precipice and had no idea how to proceed and eventually left it on a shelf in my mind for about three years before taking the courage to read and study further. I won’t bore you with details but the facts (taken from source documentary evidence) shocked me.
After many, many prayers I finally conceded that I had been hoodwinked into joining this church, giving it years of service, money, tears and sacrifice – and this is a story that is typical.
I believe in God and in the teachings of Jesus and I believe that focusing on those teachings, rather than the self-serving commandments of a bogus prophet, will lead me to God. I remain a member of the lds church and have no plans to resign. Why? Because my hope is that the leadership of this church will finally admit the truth, however difficult, and reform this church into something that is more Christ-focused, something that I can attend with the friends and family that remain. So I’m sorry if us pushing for that admittance hurts you but we’re just not going to go away so you can feel better.
As for destroying other people’s faith. No, I don’t do that. I have never sought to dissuade other mormons from attending church – but I do support the truth and if anyone asks me about the true historical facts I will tell them. Telling true historical facts to a person is not destroying a faith based on truth.
We often look back into history and applaud the actions of those that challenged the catholic church for its cruel and immoral actions. Even the US has its own infamous episode in religious history with the Salem witch trials.
“More than once it has been said, too, that the Salem witchcraft was the rock on which the theocracy shattered.” — George Lincoln Burr

You accused me of being childish, back-biting, fault-finding and of mocking and ridiculing you – would you like to provide me with a quote where I have done that? If I was guilty of any of those things I will be happy to apologise and in turn I hope that you will offer more respect and understanding for those of us who are on an HONEST quest for the truth from the church that we have loved and served.

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