Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children

(And that is by adoption)

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I’m sure we will talk again after my post on God having a body!

Vicky

“I believe this prophecy is referring to the 400 year gap, where there was no prophet speaking the word of God after Malachi until the New Testament times. This ended with the coming of John the Baptist. 400 years of silence, no prophet, no revelation. This sounds like a famine of the word of God doesn’t it?”

I fully agree with you, at last you admit there could be a time when because of apostasy the Lord did not have a prophet on the earth, therefore there was no scripture recorded. There are occasions where the Lord has revealed things that is to happen on more than one occasion, so this prophecy does not nulify the idea that the apostasy during the dark ages from 100 AD to 1820 did actually take place.

“I understand that you believe that this has already happened, but scriptuarly you have not and cannot prove this. You are taking it on Faith, Faith in what the apostles of the LDS Church have said, but not faith In what the Bible has said. I believe this refers to a time to come, before the end times. In the same sentence it says, ‘that there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed’, do you believe that this has already happened also? ”

I’ll come back at you and ask if you also are basing your belief on faith that your interpretation of scripture is correct, the pharisees also used to have their own interpretation of the scriptures and what did the Saviour say about that?,The only difference is that I have faith that latter day revelation has been given to the “LDS Church”. By the way why do you all insist of calling us LDS instead of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Yes I do believe what the LORD has revealed to Joseph Smith and the Prophets who have succeded him. Maybe you should read D&C 1 and find out for yourself the scriptual basis for my belief.

Yes there has been a falling away from the pure teachings of the Lord and the early apostles, and, to take a phrase from Bobby if you would take your head out of the sand you could know this is true. And yes Satah has been detected and his motives have been revealed, your reading, if you actually do it, of D&C 1, will tell you this.

“So are you agreeing with him here? You haven’t answered my point, by saying that there was an apostasy, the LDS Church is as good as saying that Jesus was unable to keep his church together, and here is Joseph Smith, the Founder of the church stating just that.”

Yes I am saying that, one of the greatest gifts that our Heavenly Father has given us is our free agency, and mankind using this free agency chose to forsake the pure teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles in the meridian of time and this is why the Church and revelation was taken from the earth. It was never a matter of Jesus Christ being unable to keep His Church together it happened because of the divine will of God allowing His children have this agency.

Our Heavenly Father allowed his Only Begotten Son to be persecuted and eventually be put to death for the same reasons, was this a failure?

“Again you have not addressed my point here…
Acts 10:44-45
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
How was this so, if what you are saying is the case???”

I have already addressed this in my explanation of the difference in the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, maybe you should start using the KJV of the Bible, I am tempted to go into a discussion about why we have so many versions or “translations” of the Bible, and which version really teaches the pure word of God, maybe it is the one that has not had man made interpretations added to it.!!

Just in closing I do agree with your observation that there are many aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that require us to excersise our faith. Many times the Saviour required persons to excersise this faith, and then said “Thy faith has made thee whole”.

But He called men at various times and revealed to them His will and these are the men who can give the correct interpretation of some of the more difficult passages of scripture. Hence we have the Lord saying, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing , but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7).

Throughout recorded time it has been illustrated that when man has neglected to heed the words of these prophets God has allowed the consequences to occur even the death of these prophets. But the time will come when the innocent blood of His servants will cry from the ground and terrible retrebution will be made.

Whether you believe it or not Joseph Smith was one of these men, called in his weekness and youth, and subject to all the trials of life as we all are, but used by the Lord to restore His Kingdom once more on the earth. And no matter how much mud and slander thrown at his memory, no matter how many times ungodly and corrupt men tell lies about him, no matter how many so called intelectuals and learned men cast their vile accusations on his character and accuse him of every vile and disgusting act known to man, he will be vindicated and at last will be known as one of the great servants of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

As I say it is up to you, you have your choice and Heavenly Father will allow you to excersise this choice, but remember we will be held accountable for the choices we make.

Come back at me if you want but I know what I have told you is the truth, but maybe you need to spend time on your knees and ask our Heavenly Father to reveal the truth to you, do what Joseph Smith did and rely on James 1:5-6. Jeff Walsh

I have

Ok my bad, I was being Lazy with the Isaiah and Jeremiah verses, and did not check the context of those verses. Here are a couple of better examples…

Deuteronomy 4:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

2 Kings 19:30-31
King James Version (KJV)
30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

In Isaiah an oracle concerning Philista…

Isaiah 14:30
King James Version (KJV)
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

Like I said, it is throughout the whole Old Testament, Gods people rebel, God punishes them, but reserves Himself a remnant.

In response to your last post, you are still not giving me scriptural evidence for what you are saying. Logic and reason and well thought out arguments are all well and good but when I seek truth I seek it from the word of God. If you can show me a reason to believe what you are saying from the Bible, then I would give it full consideration. But so far I do not see the vast majority of what the LDS Church teaches in the Bible.

I must address this point…

‘So, the conclusions reached by the council of Nicea was not revelation to them from God, and so they were man made!!!! Interesting so the doctrine of the godhead is a man made doctrine.’

No, the council agreed upon and put a name to a doctrine which was already evident in scripture. They did not create the doctrine of the trinity, it was already there for all to see in the Bible. And yes, I’m sure the Archbishop of Canterbury would agree with me.

“Leaders of splintered churches? Says who? Without divine revelation? I already explained my take on this but you have only cited one verse to support yours”

Virtually every letter which the apostles sent to the churches was arguing against the false teachings apostasy and divisions that was taking place, and where would they get their revelation from when the apostles were killed? So if this was happening whilst the apostles were still living, are you saying that the churches all turned back to the gospel later and continued for 250 years or so, and the 325 bishops were all “New Testament Christians”?

‘”The periods of apostasy,’ are you talking BC here? Because every time the Jews fall into sin, and God deals with them, he reserves Himself a remnant.”

I am talking about the periods of apostasy between the early years of the Bible, between Adam and Enoch, between Enoch and Noah, between Noah and Abraham, Between Abraham and Moses. these were the times when the people were idolatrous.

Vicky, I should not have to explain to you that the scriptures you give were not speaking solely about the Jews, they were only 1 of the tribes of Jacob or Israel, when the Lord was talking about a remnant He is not specifically speaking about the Jews.
Much of Isaiah 10 is speaking of a time just preceeding the 2nd Coming, he sees that a remnant of Israel will turn back to the Lord.
Similarly Jeremiah Chapter 31 is speaking of the last days also.
If you would really study Micah much of the whole book is speaking again of the last days when the great gathering of Israel will be taking place.

The next section of your post is pure supposition, just because things happen today does not mean it has happened in time past. Why would there have to be a reformation in Luthers day if the true Church of Jesus Christ was on the earth?

“Which others? You haven’t given me any scriptural references to back up what your saying!”

If you had followed my reasoning I was talking about the scriptures that said our Heavenly Father had eyes, ears, mouth, hands etc. differing from verses that speak about wings etc.

“I think you’ve misunderstood me here, I wasn’t saying that Jesus meant the Bible was finished, how could it have been the apostles hadn’t wrote the NT yet, I was simply making a play on words, trying to make a point.”

No Vicky all I said was that the statement “It is finished” was the completion of the Saviour’s mission, all the rest of what you said was pure supposition, I remind you what you said:-

Because ‘it is finished’ as Jesus said on the cross. God had revealed to us in His Son all that we need to know! If we’re not going to get it from what Jesus and Apostles taught, then we’re just not going to get it. Within the pages of the Bible we have instructions for now, and revelation of what is to come. You said up to the convening of the council? Nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered to be scripture among Christians.

The next section of your post is differentiating between, the “law” which was the law of Moses, and the higher laws of the gospel which the Saviour brought with HIm

“on what are you basing this?”

On the fact that whenever God spoke to His Prophets he was giving the guidance and revelation for there own day and the conditions they were living in. For example, in Noah’s day the people were living Idolatrous lives God gave revelation to construct an ark because he was about to cleans the earth, In Moses’s day he gave revelation for the governing of the people during the 40 years spent in the wilderness, also the building of the portable tabanacle or temple. In Jesus’s day Heavenly father spoke and gave guidance for living during the Roman Occupation, and so on.

I fully agree with you that the God I worship is not the one your interpretation of the Bible teaches you, I do not accept the 3 in one God. The God I worship is my Heavenly Father, the Father of my spirit, the one I knew before I began my mortal probation, who has provided a plan of salvation whereby I can return back into His presence. A correct interpretation of the scriptures will also teach you this if you would care to be taught the truth.

“Yes, but it is not scripture. The LDS Church may have other books considered scripture apart from the Bible. But the Christian Church does not. (One exception, the Catholic Church cannonised the apocrypha. This is not considered scripture by any other denomination, as far as I am aware) The Nicene Creed is a statement of beliefs that Churches agree upon, nothing else”

So, the conclusions reached by the council of Nicea was not revealed to them from God, and so they were man made!!!! Interestng so the doctrine of the Godhead is a man made doctrine.

That is an interesting conclusion, I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury would agree with you.

“That’s one point, you mentioned about the Holy Ghost and Holy spirit. When I say Holy Spirit I mean Holy Ghost. We do not use the wording Holy Ghost, you most likely do because it is the term used in the King James, which I may quote from, (for the sake of Mormon readers) but do not personally use.”.

The point I was making and again I think you have missed it again is the influence of the Holy Ghost can be felt by a whole group of people together as happened during Pentecost, but the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” is given following baptism and this gift blesses us with the continuous prescence whilever we are worthy. There is a tendancy to think that the Light of Christ which is given to all that come into the world is the Holy Spirit, there is a difference.

The time is far spent I will conclude this post tommorrow. Jeff Walsh

‘Who said the Arian view was heretical? Leaders of splintered churches, who, without divine revelation had fallen away from the pure teachings of Christ and the Apostles!!!!!!’

Leaders of splintered churches? Says who? Without divine revelation? I already explained my take on this but you have only cited one verse to support yours.

‘Look what happened through the periods of apostasy in the past, they turned to idolatry, worshipping false Gods and graven images, and you do not have to look far at the Church which was adopted by the Roman Empire to see how that did the same. That church surely was not the Church of Jesus Christ.’

‘The periods of apostasy,’ are you talking BC here? Because every time the Jews fall into sin, and God deals with them, he reserves Himself a remnant.

Isaiah 10:20
20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Jeremiah 31:7
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

Micah 2:12
12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

Check for yourself, every time the Jewish nation fell into disobedience, God delt with them, and he ALWAYS left a remnant.

After Jesus assended, the apostles died, the Christians were scattered due to persecution, and the word of God went with those Christians wherever they went throughout the known world. Manuscripts of the New Testament have been found in many different contries, this is how they got there.

Acts 8:1
8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:4
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

And we’re not talking about just a few people..

Acts 14:1
14 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Do you really believe that every single believer was part of the catholic church? Or that all believers were part of the established Church? The early Church met in homes, there is nothing to say that many did not continue doing so. Even today I know of churches that consists of a small group of people meeting in homes. Even if the entire known established church ( and by this, i mean well known organised churches like the Roman catholic church,) went into apostasy, there is not a shred of proof (and how could there be?) that these house churches also went into apostasy! And did God choose not to leave himself a remnant this time?

Acts 2:46
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 5:42
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:19
19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

‘Our Heavenly Father is a perfected human being, he does not have to “atribute to Himself human characeristics”, which implies that He is normaly something else.’ His humanity allows Him to feel compassion, He has eyes that can see His children and ears to hear our Prayers, a heart that can understand the pains and suffering that we endure, the figurative language that you quote from Psalms and Isaiah are just that, but these verses do not negate the others which are not figurative.’

Which others? You haven’t given me any scriptural references to back up what your saying!

‘I think you are wresting the scripture here, When Jesus said “It is Finished”, He was saying that the great mission he had come to earth to accomplish was finished, in Gethsemane and on the cross he had worked out the great Atonement’

I think you’ve misunderstood me here, I wasn’t saying that Jesus meant the Bible was finished, how could it have been the apostles hadn’t wrote the NT yet, I was simply making a play on words, trying to make a point.

‘Are you asking us to accept that your interpretation of the fragmentary record of what we have in the New Teastament of the life of Jesus and the apostles is all that our Heavenly Father is ever going to give us…?’

In Old Testament times God sent prophets, and spoke to the people through them. He spoke to them about their own times, and also of things to come. God used the Old Testament prophets to prepare the Jews to receive the Christ, giving many, many revelations about Him. This was until John…

Luke 16:16 ‘The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it’ (Luke 16:16, NIV throughout).

With Christ also came a new covenant…

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 3:20-2420 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

‘You are wrong when you say that the instructions in the New Testament are for us now, they were for the people living when the Saviour and the Apostles were performing their mission.’

on what are you basing this?

I accept that the laws and ordinances of the Gospel are for all time, such as the 10 commandments and the sermon on the mount, but to say that our Heavenly Father has left us on our own. If that is the God you worship, then He is not the one I worship.’

I agree, unfortunately, the Mormon God is not the God of the Bible.

You say that nothing that was written by the council of Nicea is considered scripture by Christians!!!! The Catholic and Anglican and Protestant Churches have as their 1st article of faith concerning the doctrine of the Godhead the Nicene creed, did not this come from that council?, By the way are you saying then that your Church is considered unauthodox?

Yes, but it is not scripture. The LDS Church may have other books considered scripture apart from the Bible. But the Christian Church does not. (One exception, the Catholic Church cannonised the apocrypha. This is not considered scripture by any other denomination, as far as I am aware) The Nicene Creed is a statement of beliefs that Churches agree upon, nothing else.

‘Your conclusion is flawed when you say that Jesus stressed the point that it is His word in the Bible that reveals the truth to us, No, the bible had not then been written, what brought the truth to the apostles was the teachings of Christ and then given to the people by His Authorised apostles. This was evidenced throuhout the Acts and the rest of the letters sent to the different Churches.’

The Bible had been written as far as the Old Testament was concerned. Jesus and the apostles quoted from it regularly. The New Testament was then written by the apostles, Jesus taught them, so that they could teach others, he commissioned them to go into all the world spreading the gosple, and equipped them with the holy spirit at Pentecost to write the New Testament.

Mark 16:14-20
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy spirit brought to the Apostles remembrance of the words of Jesus so that they could preach them to the world and record them down for generations to come.
That’s one point, you mentioned about the Holy Ghost and Holy spirit. When I say Holy Spirit I mean Holy Ghost. We do not use the wording Holy Ghost, you most likely do because it is the term used in the King James, which I may quote from, (for the sake of Mormon readers) but do not personally use.

” Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord.
And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, and they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it”. ” Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord.
And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, and they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it”. (Amos 8:11-12)

I believe this prophecy is referring to the 400 year gap, where there was no prophet speaking the word of God after Malachi until the New Testament times. This ended with the coming of John the Baptist. 400 years of silence, no prophet, no revelation. This sounds like a famine of the word of God doesn’t it?

“Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the 2nd Coming) and by our gathering together unto him
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, not by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ be at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the 2nd coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.’

I understand that you believe that this has already happened, but scriptuarly you have not and cannot prove this. You are taking it on Faith, Faith in what the apostles of the LDS Church have said, but not faith In what the Bible has said. I believe this refers to a time to come, before the end times. In the same sentence it says, ‘that there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed’, do you believe that this has already happened also?

‘You criticise Jospeh Smith, I think from a pre-considered stand point that he was a false prophet, well I do not, Maybe his words do come across as boasting, he was a man after all, but to say that “Jesus could not keep a whole Church together” and he could, well there was a falling away from the early Church and no amount of false interpretations of scripture will say differently, and I hope and pray that the Lord will open your closed mind to this fact sometime.’

So are you agreeing with him here? You haven’t answered my point, by saying that there was an apostasy, the LDS Church is as good as saying that Jesus was unable to keep his church together, and here is Joseph Smith, the Founder of the church stating just that.

‘but the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given following baptism by the laying on of hands, as evidenced in the New Testament.’

Again you have not addressed my point here…

Acts 10:44-45
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
How was this so, if what you are saying is the case???

Obviously we disagree on the points you raised, i think its very debatable how much of what the lds church experienced in ita early days was persecution. What happened to the missionaries was horrible and i would not seek to undermine that in anyway. My point was not to get in a war of who is persecuted more, though you will see my examples were much more current but rather in my experience mormons often cry persecution at the mere challenge of the truthfulness of mormonism, i find that to be pathetic.

Regarding the suicide and depression issue that is now high on my posts to do list.

I did wonder how long it would be before you talked about cancelling our meeting but that was quick. If you expect me to walk out of it wanting to be a mormon then yes it would be a waste of time, however if you want to have some positive discussion and you want to help me understand you and your position better then yeah it sounds great however i will obviously bring my side to the discussion too. I have by no means come to my opinion of mormonism without a hell of a lot of time effort and money spent (and by no means gained) so if i am closed minded it took a while to get here and i am sure you are not looking to change your position either.

So anyway i am happy to meet it was your idea talk soon