Comments on: Mormon Authority Quote Of The Week! http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/ Another Blog from UK Partnerships for Christ (www.upfc.org.uk) Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:02:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1892 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 20:36:37 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1892 Mr Lions, I have done some research and i can see you are right, Smith did appear to have ordained black people to the priesthood and this was something brought in from Brigham Young onwards, i appreciate your correction and i have added the context you provided onto the quote above, i did not know this, please stick around and keep correcting me as i want this site to be as honest as possible.

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By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1887 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:42:58 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1887 No I Didnt know that, I will do some research on it , if You could get me a more specific reference on smith ordaining black people that would be Great

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By: Mr. Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1886 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:08:39 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1886 Thanks Bob,
I am sure you will know then that the RLDS have always ordained people to the priesthood regardless of race as sanctioned by JS and that this was one of the major bones of contention that lead to Joseph Smith III, breaking away from Brigham Young after the Death of Joseph Smith Jnr. The other major problem being Young’s insistent determination to make Polygamy a Tennant of the church (it had of course been practised in secret for many years and Smiths family had been devastated by the discovery that he had several other secret wives.).
RLDS never practised Polygamy, institutional racism or even sexism, RLDS women have always been able to take the priesthood if they choose to.

Also my apologises but it has been pointed out to me that the last two RLDS presidents have not been direct descendent of JS, but that the current heir apparent is once again related to the Smith family.

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By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1885 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:45:51 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1885 Now then Mr lions I am aware of the rlds issue and I have the teachings of Joseph smith book, I also have two copies of the original book of Mormon one with all the changes marked they can be obtained from a few places, I will look into the quotes you gave and reply later thanks

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By: Mr. Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1883 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:39:38 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1883 Reference to this matter can be found in “The Teachings of Joseph Smith” and in various unedited early church works published now only by the organisation “The Community of Christ,” known from 1872 to 2001 as “the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” (RLDS),
This is also the only place you can purchase the original unexpurgated version of the “Book of Mormon” as originally written by JSjnr, with all of it’s embarrassing references to the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity, historical and Biblical inaccuracies and God sanctioned bad punctuation and spelling mistakes.

Incidentally are you aware that since a court case of 1924 the RLDS is legally the official continuation Smith’s church and that the Utah Church is a heretic schism founded by Brigham Young.
The prophets of the RLDS are direct descendent of Joseph and Emma Smith

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By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1881 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:48:47 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1881 I can see that this quote has elements of racism and equality in it, however I am interested in your point about smith ordaining black people to the priesthood, if that’s the case that’s very interesting do you have any evidence for that.

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By: Mr. Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1880 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:41:43 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1880 Dear Bob,
I thought I had done so, but to reiterate, simply put the the quote as given with your follow up comments referring to the 1978 revelation imply you see this quote as Joseph Smith advocating racism within the early early LDS church.
As I have pointed out the ordination of black men was carried out by Joseph smith, the full quote from which the extract is taken is Anti-racist and in context calls for equal rights for black people. T
The bar on Black people holding the priesthood, was post Smith and was instituted by Brigham Young.

Hope this make my point clear now.

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By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1872 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:07:00 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1872 Hey bud some fair points there but I would still like you to explain how what I said was out of context, just because I did not show the context that does not mean it was out of context, for it to be out of context means that the point I was making is not made by that quote, please explain how you feel that to be the case.

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By: Mr Lions http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1871 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:03:36 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1871 Joseph Smith was not faultless, not by any stretch of the imagination, infact he was a rogue, a con man, a liar and a treasure seeker, but I think it can be reasonably deduced he was no more and was probably less racist than anyone else of his generation.
Brigham young on the other hand was a sexist bigot who corrupt everyone around him.

Now to your quotes from the BOM.
Yes it was a commonly held belief, long before the Latter dayers began propagating it that the mark of Cain was was that he was turned black, ( though in light of modern genetic research it’s obvious that if there is any possible truth to the genesis myth, if Cain was changed in to anything it was a white man, since early hominids were all black anyway.)
Smith loved to write his fairy stories in the style of the old testament and borrowed from it wholesale.
All over the Bible are reference to people being ‘made white’ as an outward sign of inner purity it is nothing to do with race.
White = Purity is not racist, we still expect brides to wear white wedding dresses today and paint hospital and clinic rooms white to show they are sterile, pure and clean.

Remember the people we are talking about here are Semitic middle easterners, not white Europeans, colours of skin meant nothing to them. we know Simon of Cyrene was black, we know that from history and geography, so was the queen of Sheba, the bible does not even think it worth mentioning. To insult a man’s ethnicity was pointless to the Israelites, when you could insult his religion or his accent (recall Peter being mocked for his Galilean accent?)

Smith copied this reference to white purity and misinterpreted as a reference to skin colour, that’s not surprising, he got most of his Biblical interpretations wrong. However as a man of his times he was not as racist as many of his contemporaries and to give credit where credit is due was an anti-slaver. (he claimed the injustice and cruelty of slavery made his blood boil). However he probably believed racism was as inherent in ancient history as it was in his contemporary America.

So to return to my original point, quoting out of context to establish a point that is fundamentally untrue is not a good thing.
To prove the Mormon church as a whole is a racist institution is not difficult, Brigham Young alone would proudly supply you with thousands of unashamed pieces of hideous bigotry if you google for them, so why endanger your own credibility and reputation for accuracy by using a Smith quote from an anti-racist cometary out of context to make a false point?

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By: Bobby http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/07/13/mormon-authority-quote-of-the-week-4/#comment-1864 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:58:10 +0000 http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/?p=449#comment-1864 Hi Mr Lions, you are right context is great and thankyou for providing it, however i would be interested for you to explain how you feel i have explained the meaning of what i quotes wrong in light of the context you quoted, as i dont feel it makes any difference.

Regarding Brigham Young, absolutely he made questionable things that Smith said into horrible things, however i would argue the things he said he first learned largely from Joseph Smith.

The book of Mormon says this 1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

I assume you agree that the book of Mormon came from Joseph smith and not God, hence the quote above shows Smiths views on the superiority of white people. This goes on.

1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations

Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

and best of all

3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

I think that part has been changed now, however within Mormon doctrine from Joseph Smith, being white is pure and wholesome and being black is a curse that is a sign of rebellion, coming right from the pre-existence.

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